# Looks like Mt. Gox might be gone. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 25, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231 "2014-02-25T16:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/61 "2014-03-03T17:02:14Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > The value is in the desirable properties that the crypto work brings to the currency. So computer nerds completely unfamiliar with those “pick” and “shovel” things can digiwank their way to wealth? What, addressing envelopes on the kitchen table is too much work, now? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Thrasymachus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Thrasymachus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thrasymachus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/62 "2014-03-03T21:53:01Z")
For comparison, “M0” for the US (all notes and currency outside of the Federal Reserve) is about 3.8T from this (and other) sources: [http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BASE/](http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BASE/) For comparison then, 6% of that would be 220 billion. Current valuation puts the total bitcoin “economy” at about 6.8 billion (12.4 mil coins at $550/ea). Which is pretty substantial, ~1 USD for everyone on the planet but of course if they all sell at about the same time we should expect the price to drop somewhat precipitously… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/63 "2014-03-03T23:45:33Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > So computer nerds completely unfamiliar with those “pick” and “shovel” things can digiwank their way to wealth? > > What, addressing envelopes on the kitchen table is too much work, now? 😃 I suppose I ought to respond, but I’m completely mystified. What point are you trying to make? How does it relate to what I said? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/64 "2014-03-04T00:30:34Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > I suppose I ought to respond, but I’m completely mystified. What point are you trying to make? How does it relate to what I said? Never mind. It assumes we have a language in common. I guess “value” is what any two or more people agree it is. Just hope no one integral to the transaction ever disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/65 "2014-03-05T16:34:57Z")
I had about half a bitcoin I sold for $600 in like nnovember. I requested a cash withdrawl jan 6th…and it was supposedly going to take 3-4 weeks to arrange the transfer. Wasnt worried about it being slow but kinda sucks that its basically gone. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/66 "2014-03-06T03:18:59Z")
> [@Sarabellum1976](#): > > It wasn’t an inside job. And it wasn’t recent. How do you know that? Not saying it’s not true, I am genuinely curious what evidence there is. > [@Sarabellum1976](#): > > They’ve been running what amounts to a Ponzi scheme for the last year or two, attempting to recover the lost BTC in transaction fees. Why wasn’t this more widely known amongst those who used their services? Is this one of those things like Bernie Madoff where the smart money knew he was not completely legit, but didn’t recognize the magnitude of the crime, or did people truly realize they were bordering on bankruptcy? Why didn’t weren’t their troubles more widely reported? > [@Sarabellum1976](#): > > (Now if you want to talk crazy conspiracy, ask me who I think DID the hacking in the first place. And my #1 guess is the US government. ) What makes you think that is the case? Also, if each bitcoin transaction shows there the money went, how can it be “laundered” by criminals now that they have stolen it from Mt. Gox? ---
**Author:** ![Sarabellum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarabellum/32/3492_2.png) [@Sarabellum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarabellum)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/67 "2014-03-06T12:43:03Z")
It’s just my opinion, based on what I’ve read. The idea occurred to me last year when people started reporting that withdrawals took a long time, and I thought maybe there was more to it than “technical difficulties”. If there was indeed a theft, it’s easy to see why it was kept secret, obviously customers would have “rushed the bank” assuming their funds were not secure enough, and they’d have gone under and nobody would have gotten their BTC anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/68 "2014-03-07T13:49:28Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Never mind. It assumes we have a language in common. > > I guess “value” is what any two or more people agree it is. Just hope no one integral to the transaction ever disagrees. Why hope, when instead you could pay attention to what words mean? A transaction is pretty much two parties agreeing on a value. When they don’t, no transaction takes place. In any case you seem to be switching between deriding two different values - the value of a bitcoin, which is _not_ what I was talking about (nor what the guy I was responding to, was talking about), and the value of the mining process, which is what I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/69 "2014-03-07T14:11:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Never mind. It assumes we have a language in common. > > I guess “value” is what any two or more people agree it is. Just hope no one integral to the transaction ever disagrees. > [@Nancarrow](#): > > Why hope, when instead you could pay attention to what words mean? A transaction is pretty much two parties agreeing on a value. When they don’t, no transaction takes place. Why yes, it says so it right there in the Econ 101 textbook. Maybe you could explain how that worked in the [del]Magic the Gathering Online Xchange[/del] [del]MTGOX[/del] Mt. Gox instance, or in the next ten instances where someone who has more greed than “hope” makes the gathered magic of bitcoins vanish before your eyes. > [@](#): > > In any case you seem to be switching between deriding two different values - the value of a bitcoin, which is _not_ what I was talking about (nor what the guy I was responding to, was talking about), and the value of the mining process, which is what I was talking about. I’m flexible; I can deride many things simultaneously. But you’re welcome to explain how processing an algorithm to pop out embedded tokens creates “value.” You might want to consider my first sentence up there at the top a while first. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/70 "2014-03-07T14:21:32Z")
Do the missing bitcoins have any value? How can you trade in a virtual currency outside of the context of an exchange? Is there a black market for bitcoins? How would stolen bitcoins get back into the system of exchanges? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/71 "2014-03-07T14:31:32Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do the missing bitcoins have any value? Yes. You can make Kool-Aid from them. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/72 "2014-03-07T14:35:22Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Why yes, it says so it right there in the Econ 101 textbook. Maybe you could explain how that worked in the [del]Magic the Gathering Online Xchange[/del] [del]MTGOX[/del] Mt. Gox instance, or in the next ten instances where someone who has more greed than “hope” makes the gathered magic of bitcoins vanish before your eyes. Yes, I can do this very easily. People trading on MtGox thought they were buying bitcoins with dollars. They were not. They were buying promises from MtGox, that MtGox could not keep. To repeat: if you want to make the case that Bitcoins are valueless, please understand that MtGox’s failure _isn’t about the value of Bitcoins_. If you think it is, please learn a bit more. I can’t think what more to say to you, because I’m seeing a lot of snark (and giving it, to be fair) but no _meaning_. It’s a bit like reading **mythoughts** on Special Relativity. How can I respond to someone who is probably not even clear on what thoughts they are trying to express? ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/73 "2014-03-07T14:39:41Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes. You can make Kool-Aid from them. Exemplary post. Snark. But what does it mean? “Bitcoins aren’t worth anything”. But what does THAT mean? Whatever you can make it mean, to make it sound like you might have some concrete and useful idea. Maybe it’s about MtGox collapsing. Maybe it’s about the dollar value of a bitcoin. Maybe it’s about the computational work involved in mining. That’s the great thing about not knowing what you’re talking about, you can keep shifting your meaning (sorry, I mean ‘being flexible’) whenever someone tries to work out what point you’re trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/74 "2014-03-07T14:39:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do the missing bitcoins have any value? How can you trade in a virtual currency outside of the context of an exchange? Is there a black market for bitcoins? How would stolen bitcoins get back into the system of exchanges? Through something called a bitcoin tumbler which has a bunch of clean bitcoins. You send your dirty bitcoins to their wallet and then they send you back that same number of bitcoins from a second wallet at a clean address you own. Because the tumbler transferred bitcoins internally between its two wallets and mixed the dirty bitcoins with clean bitcoins, you can’t use the blockchain to trace the path of the bitcoins directly. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231/75 "2014-03-07T15:58:06Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > Exemplary post. Snark. But what does it mean? It means you keep carrying on a conversation as if it’s about something with a complete set of agreed meanings, when it’s actually between a fully indoctrinated true believer and a group of nonbelievers. Your perpetual surprise that we (or just I) don’t take your comments at face value, as if you’re talking about an established world currency, indicates that you’ve had a lot of Kool-Aid. When you can explain how heating a CPU, GPU or ASIC to the glow point establishes value equivalent to the bases of accepted currencies, we might have a Kool-Aid-free starting point. From out here, it looks like a speedcuber’s awe of speedcubing records. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-mt-gox-might-be-gone/682231.md?page=3)