# Looks like South African runner may well be a hermaphrodite - Should she compete as a woman? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596 "2009-09-10T19:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/1 "2009-09-10T19:47:07Z")
Re this [story](http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2631482/Runner-is-a-hermaphrodite.html) Externally she’s a woman, she’s lived a woman, should she get to keep competing as a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/2 "2009-09-10T20:47:53Z")
Let’s hope the governing body has rules in place already that address this question. If it has to make a ruling post hoc out of nothing, it’s going to open itself up to charges of unfairness no matter what it does. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/3 "2009-09-10T21:13:26Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Let’s hope the governing body has rules in place already that address this question. If it has to make a ruling post hoc out of nothing, it’s going to open itself up to charges of unfairness no matter what it does. I’m not sure about specific rules for “hemaphrodite” for which there are possibly many, many variations, but there are limits for testosterone in female competitors. IIRC, she did pass the initial tests for testosterone levels and was within an acceptable limit. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/4 "2009-09-10T21:20:50Z")
Nitpick - (well, big nitpick) a person with undescended testes and no womb or ovaries is NOT a hermaphrodite. Caster (if the reports are correct) has ambiguous external genitalia, it’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/5 "2009-09-10T21:33:02Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Nitpick - (well, big nitpick) a person with undescended testes and no womb or ovaries is NOT a hermaphrodite. Caster (if the reports are correct) has ambiguous external genitalia, it’s not the same thing. That is true. The condition you describe is a pseudo-hermaphrodite which is way more common than most people realize. True hermaphrodites have two functioning sets of gonads, one from each sex and that situation is very rare and can lead to some bizarre questions. There are many medical variations on the physiological implications of this sort of thing but there is no way to know without more facts. For example, there is a condition called Androgen Insensitivity disorder in which the developing male doesn’t respond to his own sex hormones in utero and develops as a phenotypical female which is the default state. I am not sure that would give many advantages over other females. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/6 "2009-09-10T22:45:44Z")
I’m afraid I take a very simple view: if the genes are XX then Semenya’s female. Otherwise Semenya isn’t. That’s all there is to it, really. Oh, and if Semenya’s genes aren’t XY, Semenya isn’t male, either. ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/7 "2009-09-10T22:58:47Z")
She should compete against the men. I think the female competition should be reserved for females only (no ambiguity). Everyone else gets put in the men’s competition. I do feel sorry for her…that’s got to be hard news to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/8 "2009-09-10T23:02:27Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m afraid I take a very simple view: if the genes are XX then Semenya’s female. Otherwise Semenya isn’t. That’s all there is to it, really. > > Oh, and if Semenya’s genes aren’t XY, Semenya isn’t male, either. That is one way to look at it but do you suggest that all pseudo-hermaphrodites get disqualified from major sporting events? It isn’t that uncommon for genetic sex not to match phenotypical sex. It isn’t like any of these people intentionally cheated and it seems stupid to put them in the Special Olympics because of it. It is quite possible to be a genetic male and not respond to male hormones so it doesn’t really matter what the genes say and doesn’t give someone any known advantage over other females. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/9 "2009-09-10T23:09:56Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m afraid I take a very simple view: if the genes are XX then Semenya’s female. Otherwise Semenya isn’t. That’s all there is to it, really. > > Oh, and if Semenya’s genes aren’t XY, Semenya isn’t male, either. What if she’s none of the above? Like XYY? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/10 "2009-09-11T00:59:20Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > … do you suggest that all pseudo-hermaphrodites get disqualified from major sporting events? One category of track and field events is commonly known as “men’s” competition, no doubt because the competitors are almost always men. But so far as I know, no sort of genetic eligibility test applies - this category is in fact open to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/11 "2009-09-11T01:34:54Z")
Seriously, until it’s from a more reputable source than The Sun, I’ll reserve judgement. I suspect they took the old news, i.e. much higher than normal testosterone for a woman (but much lower than normal for a man, which of course they didn’t report) and “embelished” it a little bit. As it happens the story was repeated in a Sydney tabloid today as well (The Daily Telegraph). I suspect they took it from The Sun since they are both sensationalist Murdoch rags. ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/12 "2009-09-11T01:48:33Z")
> [@Lord\_Mondegreen](#): > > Seriously, until it’s from a more reputable source than The Sun, I’ll reserve judgement. I suspect they took the old news, i.e. much higher than normal testosterone for a woman (but much lower than normal for a man, which of course they didn’t report) and “embelished” it a little bit. > > As it happens the story was repeated in a Sydney tabloid today as well (The Daily Telegraph). I suspect they took it from The Sun since they are both sensationalist Murdoch rags. I don’t trust it either… I’m waiting until something more reputable breaks it. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/13 "2009-09-11T02:19:00Z")
Quartz, what gender do you consider people who have both XX and XY chromosomes? Just curious. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![breezman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@breezman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/breezman)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/14 "2009-09-11T02:21:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m afraid I take a very simple view: if the genes are XX then Semenya’s female. Otherwise Semenya isn’t. That’s all there is to it, really. But what if the person has a mix of XX and XY genes? That happens in some cases of [tetragametic chimerism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragametic_chimerism). ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/15 "2009-09-11T05:25:01Z")
> [@TheFifthYear](#): > > She should compete against the men. I think the female competition should be reserved for females only (no ambiguity). Everyone else gets put in the men’s competition. > > I do feel sorry for her…that’s got to be hard news to hear. Why should there be ambiguity in the men’s categories if you don’t want it in the women’s? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/16 "2009-09-11T06:18:51Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > That is one way to look at it but do you suggest that all pseudo-hermaphrodites get disqualified from major sporting events? If they’re XX they compete in women’s events; if they’re XY they compete in the men’s. If they’re something else, they don’t compete in either. Maybe the paralympics? It’s harsh, but fair. > [@breezman](#): > > But what if the person has a mix of XX and XY genes? See above. > [@Oregon Sunshine](#): > > Quartz, what gender do you consider people who have both XX and XY chromosomes? Socially, as whatever they present themselves. Medically, as intersex. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > That is one way to look at it but do you suggest that all pseudo-hermaphrodites get disqualified from major sporting events? Yes. Or put in a separate category. It’s not nice, it’s harsh, but it’s fair. IMHO to do anything else is unfair to XY men and XX women. And it’s unfair to the paying public if they have to ask themselves, “Is she really a she?” ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/17 "2009-09-11T06:21:10Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > If they’re XX they compete in women’s events; if they’re XY they compete in the men’s. If they’re something else, they don’t compete in either. Maybe the paralympics? It’s harsh, but fair. But they’re not handicapped. How is that fair? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/18 "2009-09-11T06:29:33Z")
> [@TheFifthYear](#): > > She should compete against the men. I think the female competition should be reserved for females only (no ambiguity). Everyone else gets put in the men’s competition. I have to agree. If this person, whether you call her a male or female or hermaphrodite, had been competing with the men all along there would be no controversy. Women are held to a lower standard in athletics so having an ambiguous case is bound to open up allegations of unfairness. ---
**Author:** ![mecaenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/91b2a8/32.png) [@mecaenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mecaenas)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/19 "2009-09-11T09:55:21Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Why should there be ambiguity in the men’s categories if you don’t want it in the women’s? Because professional male athletes are generally faster and stronger than professional female athletes due to biology. The mens competitions and records are more physically demanding to reach. Ergo, if a person of ambiguous gender leans towards being male then it is unfair for them to have the potential male biological edge over the other women. I know that’s horribly sexist in this day and age, but despite the necessity of gender equality in society and politics, you can’t change the reality of biology. ---
**Author:** ![mecaenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/91b2a8/32.png) [@mecaenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mecaenas)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/20 "2009-09-11T09:56:51Z")
Incidentally, the fairness I’m referring to isn’t about being fair to the individual, rather it’s about fairness to the group of athletes as a whole. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596.md?page=2)