# Looks like South African runner may well be a hermaphrodite - Should she compete as a woman? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596 "2009-09-10T19:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/41 "2009-09-11T17:28:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Because they’re neither male nor female. Therefore they should be ineligible to compete in either category. That doesn’t make any sense, since there’s no reason to think that the men would be adversely affected by having intersexed competitors. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/42 "2009-09-11T17:39:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Because they’re neither male nor female. Therefore they should be ineligible to compete in either category. If the contest were “who has the most Y chromosomes”, or “who produces the most estrogen”, then yes, I can see how being intersexed could give someone an advantage in either category. But the contest isn’t about being male or female; it’s about who’s fastest. It’s a contest of _physical ability_. And while it’s true that genetic sex usually determines physical characteristics, it doesn’t always, so how can it be used as a reliable measure here? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/43 "2009-09-11T17:50:10Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why would gymnastics be advantageous towards intersexed? > > Anyway, it’s not like Caster has the speed of a man. She’s still a lot slower than the best male times. I don’t see why letting her compete with the other women is so unfair. There are a lot of _men_ who are slower than the best male times. Should they be allowed to compete with the women if they choose to self-identify as women? The problem here is that we tend to view the results of such competition - gold medals and world records - as indications of “the best”. Right now there is a woman’s “best” and a man’s “best”. Failing to protect the woman’s category for “women” only would mean that there would be a hefty incentive for certain athletes (or in some cases their countries) to compete in the category with the weaker competition, so as to win medals. The end result would be to elide the distinction between the categories - you’d only have one “best”, and very few women would ever achieve it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/44 "2009-09-11T17:52:11Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > That doesn’t make any sense, since there’s no reason to think that the men would be adversely affected by having intersexed competitors. Yup, anyone who wants to and is human should be allowed, if they should so choose, to compete in the “men’s” category, since there is no known advantage as far as I’m aware to being “intersexed” over being male in such competition. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/45 "2009-09-11T19:25:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yup, anyone who wants to and is human should be allowed, if they should so choose, to compete in the “men’s” category, Agreed. To my mind, this is similar to having an Open category. When I competed in Judo, they’d have weight classes and Open, where anyone could compete regardless of weight. I consider most men’s athletic events to be Open, and the women’s event to be restricted, similar to a weight class, with a rigid definition of what constitutes being allowed in that class. The point of having a restricted class is to control the level of competition, so I would look to doctors identifying what types of intersex genetics would give a person a significant competitive advantage over a person with normal genetics. This would not apply to the men’s class, because it would be Open, with any human being allowed to compete freely. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/46 "2009-09-11T20:38:56Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But since there almost never are true hermaphrodites in humans (has there ever been?), is it really accurate? It depends on what you mean by “true”. There have been dozens of people born with both ovarian and testicular tissue and a penis and vagina but the function of one or both sets of reproductive systems is usually compromised in some way. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/47 "2009-09-11T20:46:55Z")
I think ESPN needs to have the XXY games. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/48 "2009-09-11T21:00:58Z")
Huh. I never knew that the Olympic events referred to as “Men’s” were actually open to anyone. Does that mean that if there was a women who, let’s say, ran a faster 100m time than the best man that she would then be able to compete in that category rather than in the “women’s?” (Yes yes, I know, unlikely or impossible to ever happen because of biology but I’m just curious what would happen.) Are there current Olympic sports where men & women compete against one another? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/49 "2009-09-11T21:14:45Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Anyway, it’s not like Caster has the speed of a man. She’s still a lot slower than the best male times. I don’t see why letting her compete with the other women is so unfair. Because she’s kicking the snot out of the other women, arguably due to having biological advantages of male musculature that they do not have and cannot have. So how is letting her compete with other women fair to them? ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/50 "2009-09-11T21:17:15Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > Can we please, please stop using the terms ‘hermaphrodite’ and ‘pseudo-hermaphrodite’? They are [offensive and inaccurate](http://www.isna.org/faq/hermaphrodite). Point taken, but some of us were referring to the story linked to in the OP, which starts out “South Africa reacted angrily today to world champion runner Caster Semenya’s test results that found she was a hermaphrodite”. I’m more familiar with the term “intersexed”, but didn’t know “hermaphrodite” was offensive seeing as it’s been in the paper so much the last couple of days. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/51 "2009-09-11T21:31:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There are a lot of _men_ who are slower than the best male times. Should they be allowed to compete with the women if they choose to self-identify as women? There are international sporting events that allow transgendered competitors to compete as their preferred gender, but I believe they still have to meet hormone criteria. That includes the IOC policy that allows athletes who have legal recognition of their chosen gender, have completed gender reassignment surgery, and have been taking hormone therapy for at least two years. For example there are transgendered (male to female) cyclist, Michelle Dumaresq and Kristen Worley, who compete regularly. Worley was hoping to qualify for the Olympics. There is also Alyn Libman (female to male) who competes internationally against men (skating). I believe I’ve read that Dumaresq lost about 30% of her muscle mass after hormone therapy, although there has been some speculation about whether or not her percentage of body fat may give her any kind of advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/52 "2009-09-11T23:21:10Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > That doesn’t make any sense, since there’s no reason to think that the men would be adversely affected by having intersexed competitors. Are you being obtuse? XY = male, XX= female, anything else = not eligible for male or female events. I don’t know if there is such an event, but from what you say, you wouldn’t have a problem with those of intersex competing against men. You might as well do away with all separate events. Yes it’s harsh, but booting intersex athletes from men’s and women’s competitions is entirely fair. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/53 "2009-09-11T23:37:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Are you being obtuse? XY = male, XX= female, anything else = not eligible for male or female events. > … > Yes it’s harsh, but booting intersex athletes from men’s and women’s competitions is entirely fair. Do you have any evidence that genetic standards and testing are used to qualify prospective entrants to (so-called) men’s events? ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/54 "2009-09-12T00:32:30Z")
> [@Serenata67](#): > > I don’t trust it either… I’m waiting until something more reputable breaks it. Okay something more reputable broke it… I trust [yahoo news](http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Semenya-withdraws-from-race-amidst-reports-she-s?urn=oly,188930). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/55 "2009-09-12T03:00:14Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > If it’s true that she has no ovaries, then how can it also be true that she has the normal amount of female hormones? Isn’t estrogen (mostly) produced by the ovaries? Men are capable of converting testosterone to estrogen. They in fact need to do this because estrogen is an important hormone for things like bone growth. There have been a very few cases of men who produce _no_ estrogen in their bodies, and they usually start showing symptoms of osteoporosis in their 20’s, as well as heart disease. Lack of estrogen is pathological in either gender. This is also a problem for some intersex people who either don’t produce sufficient amounts of any sex hormones, or who have had their gonads removed surgically. They then require hormone replacement therapy to maintain their health long term. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/56 "2009-09-12T03:03:53Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But on the other hand, if you only consider a physical scale, where is the cutoff? There are probably also XX people with extremely masculine musculatures and abilities - should people with more typically female bodies have to compete against them? There are, in fact, XX males - they have two X chromosomes but a fully male appearance, including functioning penis and male muscle development. Such people would have a terribly unfair advantage if they were competing with typical women because functionally they are _men_, whatever their chromosomes may say, just as people with AIS are functionally _women_ despite their Y chromosome. I suspect, though, that any XX male would be competing again normal XY men and no one would be questioning or testing their gender. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/57 "2009-09-12T03:08:06Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But since there almost never are true hermaphrodites in humans (has there ever been?), is it really accurate? There have been a very few cases documented of people who truly do have both male and female sexual organs. A medical journal a few years back published a case (including picture) of an infant with XX/XY mosaicism who clearly had one ovary and one testes and apparently also external genitalia, although apparently there was some deviance from the norm there (I’ll say!) This is extraordinarily rare, however. The vast majority of intersexed people would be “pseudo-hermaphrodites” (and if that’s offensive will someone please post the current proper term) who might be more properly described as intersex or people of ambiguous development, but who do not actually have the gonads of both genders present at once. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/58 "2009-09-12T03:16:28Z")
[According to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/12/2683897.htm), the South African Government has said that anyone who tried to strip Caster of her championship would be considered “An Enemy Of The State”. :eek: And frankly I’m tired of the euphemism treadmill, too, but that’s a topic for another thread… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/59 "2009-09-12T03:20:02Z")
A totally fair alternative that will never see the light of day would be to do something like measuring a person’s bone lengths, their level of various hormones, etc. then checking that against other people and determining how each variable tends to affect race speed, and from that determining a theoretical expected average and range of difference. The winner wouldn’t be the person who ran the fastest, but rather the person who had accomplished the most based on his/her physical makeup. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/60 "2009-09-12T06:15:14Z")
Question: Who is the fastest amongst vagina-possessing humans? Answer: She is. Result: Gold medal. The end. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596.md?page=4)