# Looks like South African runner may well be a hermaphrodite - Should she compete as a woman? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596 "2009-09-10T19:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/61 "2009-09-12T13:27:44Z")
> [@Serenata67](#): > > Okay something more reputable broke it… I trust [yahoo news](http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Semenya-withdraws-from-race-amidst-reports-she-s?urn=oly,188930). You trust this comment? “Regardless of whether the intentions of Semenya and her handlers were nefarious, they had to know of her ambiguous gender. Not having ovaries isn’t something that goes unnoticed. If they did, then at what point did this turn from an unfortunate medical situation into outright deception?” Having ovaries IS something that is noticed? I can’t say I have ever noticed my own ovaries let alone anyone elses. Her gender was never ambigious to HER! She was and is a girl to her and her family. Yahoo news is reputable? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/62 "2009-09-12T13:33:58Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > [According to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/12/2683897.htm), the South African Government has said that anyone who tried to strip Caster of her championship would be considered “An Enemy Of The State” Well now they have the rugby to take their mind off such things. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/63 "2009-09-12T13:47:17Z")
> [@Serenata67](#): > > Okay something more reputable broke it… I trust [yahoo news](http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Semenya-withdraws-from-race-amidst-reports-she-s?urn=oly,188930). Did you read the article? > [@](#): > > Caster Semenya, the 18-year old at the center of one of the biggest gender scandals in sports history, withdrew from a weekend race in South Africa amidst **unconfirmed** reports that her gender tests have revealed that she has both male and female sexual organs. > > She was scheduled to compete in the 4,000 meters at the national cross country championships in Pretoria. Semenya’s coach, Michael Seme, says his runner “isn’t feeling well”. > > Yesterday, **unsubstantiated** reports from Australia and England said that Semenya’s tests showed that she has no womb or ovaries and produces testosterone levels three times higher than a normal woman. The IAAF thinly denies the reports. (The organization’s spokesman says he hasn’t “seen” the results, which doesn’t mean he hasn’t “heard” the results. Nor has the IAAF come out and said that the reports are false.) (emphasis mine) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/64 "2009-09-12T13:57:18Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > Can we please, please stop using the terms ‘hermaphrodite’ and ‘pseudo-hermaphrodite’? They are [offensive and inaccurate](http://www.isna.org/faq/hermaphrodite). > [@](#): > > five ISNA-associated experts recommend that all terms based on the root “hermaphrodite” be abandoned because they are scientifically specious and clinically problematic. The terms fail to reflect modern scientific understandings of intersex conditions, confuse clinicians, harm patients, and panic parents. We think it is much better for everyone involved when specific condition names are used in medical research and practice. According to **FIVE** medical scientists! It must be true then! I think I’d be more interested about what they were going to do with my genitalia, than what they were calling my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/65 "2009-09-12T14:01:35Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Do you have any evidence that genetic standards and testing are used to qualify prospective entrants to (so-called) men’s events? I don’t know if there are; if there aren’t, perhaps there should be? ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/66 "2009-09-12T14:12:43Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Are there current Olympic sports where men & women compete against one another? Men and women compete against each other in Equestrian (also, boy and girl horses). If you ever get that as a trivia question, Equestrian is always your safe answer. For some time, some of the sailing events were mixed, but fairly recently (2004?) everything went to either Men’s or Women’s categories. Badminton has a mixed doubles category, but I don’t know if I would count that the same way. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/67 "2009-09-12T14:39:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I don’t know if there are; if there aren’t, perhaps there should be? Why? A woman wouldn’t try to sneak into a men’s compettition. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/68 "2009-09-12T18:09:45Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Are you being obtuse? XY = male, XX= female, anything else = not eligible for male or female events. > > I don’t know if there is such an event, but from what you say, you wouldn’t have a problem with those of intersex competing against men. > > You might as well do away with all separate events. > > Yes it’s harsh, but booting intersex athletes from men’s and women’s competitions is entirely fair. Are you? Approximately everyone here who is not you seems to understand that sex is not quite that binary. The reason that the womens’ events are confined to women is that women are, on the whole, not as fast or strong as men at a comparable level of competition (ie, the fastest women are still LESS fast than the fastest men). Try this scenario: if she were competing in the mens’ event, and won, no one would care, because the men were not at an inherent disadvantage. So if an XXY has no inherent advantage over an XY, how is it \*\*\*fair \*\*\*to prevent them from competing in the mens’ events? ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/69 "2009-09-12T19:37:50Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > Did you read the article? > > (emphasis mine) It’s more reputable than the previous article “breaking” the news. We’re all still “speculating” … a lot of the people on this thread are assuming it is pure honest to G-D fact. Where has anyone else read, with more certainty than the above mentioned article, that she is FOR SURE of ambiguous gender? You are nitpicking my cite, but I haven’t seen any cites from any of you… it’s the most conclusive cite I’ve seen so far. And it’s not as shady as the previous cite (at the beginning of the thread). I’m not saying this article is saying for certain anything. And by not wildly asserting anything, I find it more reputable than the aforementioned article that does. And, therefore, more reputable than those on this thread who are assuming she has or does not have certain parts. If this were a hypothetical thread, then fine, no cite necessary, but many here are saying things about a particular person as if it were fact. (Possibly bordering on libel?) ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/70 "2009-09-12T19:46:32Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > According to **FIVE** medical scientists! It must be true then! > > I think I’d be more interested about what they were going to do with my genitalia, than what they were calling my problem. AFAIK, “hermaphrodite” isn’t considered offensive in the UK. At least, I’ve seen it in several respected newspapers, including the Guardian which is usually on the cutting edge of PC, and several doctors on TV recently have used the term. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/71 "2009-09-12T21:27:39Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > There are international sporting events that allow transgendered competitors to compete as their preferred gender, but I believe they still have to meet hormone criteria. That includes the IOC policy that allows athletes who have legal recognition of their chosen gender, have completed gender reassignment surgery, and have been taking hormone therapy for at least two years. That’s interesting. It suggests she’s on the cusp of being able to compete according to the Olympic policy. She is already legally recognized as female, she doesn’t seem to need “reconstructive surgery” because she doesn’t have dangly bits, (unless it means _all_ male parts, including undescended testes that are hidden away on the inside) and may be within normal testosterone ranges (conflicting info on that. Previous reports say she tested within acceptable limits for women, the NY Daily New article said her testosterone levels were three times higher - so which is it? ) She is only 18. I think she will continue to be a solid competitor in the future. I would hate to have to be faced with her options right now though, if I really loved my sport. If my option was to have a perfectly healthy body part cut out of me so I’d be allowed to participate? Sounds awful! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/72 "2009-09-12T23:15:53Z")
Well, the thing with the testes inside is that they could go cancerous so they’re generally removed. I don’t think it’s about removing them just so she can participate–most women like that are told they should remove them. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/73 "2009-09-13T17:26:23Z")
> [@Serenata67](#): > > It’s more reputable than the previous article “breaking” the news. We’re all still “speculating” … a lot of the people on this thread are assuming it is pure honest to G-D fact. Where has anyone else read, with more certainty than the above mentioned article, that she is FOR SURE of ambiguous gender? > > You are nitpicking my cite, but I haven’t seen any cites from any of you… it’s the most conclusive cite I’ve seen so far. And it’s not as shady as the previous cite (at the beginning of the thread). I’m not saying this article is saying for certain anything. And by not wildly asserting anything, I find it more reputable than the aforementioned article that does. And, therefore, more reputable than those on this thread who are assuming she has or does not have certain parts. If this were a hypothetical thread, then fine, no cite necessary, but many here are saying things about a particular person as if it were fact. (Possibly bordering on libel?) I misunderstood your post then. I thought by saying: > [@Serenata67](#): > > Okay something more reputable broke it… I trust [yahoo news](http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Semenya-withdraws-from-race-amidst-reports-she-s?urn=oly,188930). you meant that it did say something conclusive. Though I’m still confused. I’m “nitpicking your cite”, but you agree with my nitpicking? In any case, I was just trying to say that we only have unsubstantiated rumors right now. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/74 "2009-09-14T09:02:59Z")
> [@Eats\_Crayons](#): > > Previous reports say she tested within acceptable limits for women, the NY Daily New article said her testosterone levels were three times higher - so which is it? Both. Three times mean female levels, well within the acceptable range for biological females. ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/75 "2009-09-14T12:17:11Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > I misunderstood your post then. I thought by saying: > > you meant that it did say something conclusive. Though I’m still confused. I’m “nitpicking your cite”, but you agree with my nitpicking? > > In any case, I was just trying to say that we only have unsubstantiated rumors right now. Perhaps I should have said “I trust yahoo news more” or something. Prior to seeing that article, this whole subject reeked of locker room rumors by someone trying to console themselves after losing to a rather mannish looking woman. Now that I’ve read that second article, I am _more convinced_ because I trust the source more. Now that I’ve read something on a more reputable site, I’m more open to the possibility that this could be true. I agree with the statement that we have unsubstantiated rumors right now. Why the hell then is everyone assuming she has or doesn’t have particular genitalia? Most of the people on this thread are assuming she is a he or whatever and are going around taking that as the truth. Remember, it’s innocent until proven guilty. Perhaps we should be putting something in those posts about “allegedly” or “possibly” or “presumably” and therefore mitigate the rashness of our statements. ---
**Author:** ![Slanky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Slanky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slanky)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/76 "2009-09-15T06:07:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are, in fact, XX males - they have two X chromosomes but a fully male appearance, including functioning penis and male muscle development. I don’t doubt you, but can you say what syndrome you are talking about? The closest I can think of is XX male syndrome, but that produces a patient that has Kleinfelter like characteristics including gynecomastia, infertility, and female height and weight. Furthermore, all these patients have the SRY gene which is nearly equivalent to having the Y chromosome. [QUOTE=calm kiwi] Having ovaries IS something that is noticed? I can’t say I have ever noticed my own ovaries let alone anyone elses. [/QUOTE] Not ever achieving menarche is something that is usually noticed and should lead to a full medical workup… ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/77 "2009-09-15T06:11:10Z")
> [@Slanky](#): > > Not ever achieving menarche is something that is usually noticed and should lead to a full medical workup… I commented on that on some thread, I forget where, and was told that some people just do it later and maybe because she was an athlete they just figured it was a low body fat thing. I dunno how you can not notice that. My pediatrician always asked me about my periods at my yearly check ups (had I started, how regular, etc.)–you’d think that past a certain point you’d get examined if you still hadn’t ever started. If you’re not menstruating due to low body weight that’s very dangerous and if it’s due to something else like AIS, that needs to be checked out, too. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/78 "2009-09-15T23:20:13Z")
> [@Slanky](#): > > Not ever achieving menarche is something that is usually noticed and should lead to a full medical workup… It’s not uncommon for elite woman athletes to rarely or never experience menstruation due to extremely low body fat. It would be a little strange to have literally _never_ had it, but not impossible, given her young age and presumably extreme training regimen. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/79 "2009-09-15T23:21:44Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > It’s not uncommon for elite woman athletes to rarely or never experience menstruation due to extremely low body fat. It would be a little strange to have literally _never_ had it, but not impossible, given her young age and presumably extreme training regimen. If you were having regular doctor’s appointments, would this be considered a problem? Like, I’d assume if your body fat was so low you couldn’t menstruate that you’d probably be advised to cut down on the exercise or something. Though I guess people don’t always listen to medical advise. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596/80 "2009-09-16T01:58:03Z")
I don’t know about Semenya’s particular circumstances, but she did grow up in a country with a less than stellar reputation when it comes to women’s health care. I don’t think we can assume that she was having regular doctor’s appointments growing up. Once she was training as an athlete then a lack of menstrual periods probably wouldn’t have seemed particularly unusual to whatever sports physicians she was seeing. I wouldn’t think a doctor would be concerned about a young patient with low body fat as long as she was healthy and didn’t seem to be suffering from an eating disorder. A young woman who had never started menstruating but _didn’t_ have unusually low body fat might be a different story, because that could possibly be a sign of other health problems. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-south-african-runner-may-well-be-a-hermaphrodite-should-she-compete-as-a-woman/509596.md?page=5)