# Looks like whether it's baseball, football, or basketball, all losings team do the same thing **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 24, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757 "2016-09-24T20:06:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cg16](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@cg16](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cg16)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/21 "2016-09-25T02:41:37Z")
Looks like the 69-85 Phillies is about to beat the 82-72 as they lead 10-7 at the top of the 9th:smack: ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/22 "2016-09-25T02:50:34Z")
> [@cg16](#): > > Looks like the 69-85 Phillies is about to beat the 82-72 as they lead 10-7 at the top of the 9th:smack: So? Teams with better records lose to teams with losing records every day. If you aren’t good enough to beat the Phillies, or the Braves, or the DBacks, maybe you don’t deserve a playoff spot. Kinda how this while shebang works. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/23 "2016-09-25T04:19:04Z")
> [@cg16](#): > > Looks like the 69-85 Phillies is about to beat the 82-72 as they lead 10-7 at the top of the 9th:smack: You clearly have no idea about baseball. None. In any given year, even the very worst baseball team is very unlikely to win less than one-third of its games. And in any given year, even the very best baseball team is unlikely to win more than two-thirds of its games. As of right now in the standings, there is no team with a winning percentage greater than .667, and no team with one below .333. There are occasional teams that finish the season with results outside those margins, but it’s pretty rare. This means that, when two teams meet in a 3-game series, as happens hundreds of times every year, the most likely result is a 2-1 split, even if the two teams are, respectively, the best and the worst in Major League Baseball. Bad teams beat good teams all the time in baseball, not just in September. Take your own example of the Phillies and the Mets. Those two teams played a 3-game series back on April 8, 9 , and 10. The Phillies won that series 2 games to 1. The Phillies also beat the Mets in games on April 20, July 16, and August 28. So tell me again how tonight’s game proves your point. After tonight’s win, the Phillies’ record against the Mets so far this year is 6-8. The specific result of tonight’s game is essentially meaningless, except that it added one W to the Phillies’ season total, and one L for the Mets. The baseball season isn’t about any one win. It’s about the aggregate, about stringing together enough wins, and enough series wins, to keep you in the hunt for the playoffs. The fact that you keep pointing to single game results as if they support your thesis demonstrates just how misguided your “argument” is. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/24 "2016-09-26T14:52:07Z")
> [@cg16](#): > > One NFL game comes to mind, I think it was the Arizona cards vs the minnesota vikings in 2003 and all minny had to do was win and they was in. I recall someone of the cardinals playing being pumped up to kill their chances and saying something along the lines of we can’t get it and will make sure yall can’t get in In regards to this, it might be worth thinking about how professional athletes might want to motivate themselves to play hard, and how they might even find reasons to get emotionally involved, even in situations that they wouldn’t really care about. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/25 "2016-09-26T15:25:59Z")
> [@cg16](#): > > The fact that they know the team they are playing needs to win to get in the postseason gives them something to play for. > > That old Philosophy…“if we ain’t going, yall not either” What the hell makes you think these teams are trying harder than they did in June? Let’s look at MLB’s six last place teams and how they’ve done in their last ten games: Tampa Bay: 3-7 Minnesota: 2-8 Oakland: 4-6 Atlanta: 7-3 Cincinnati: 3-7 Arizona: 3-7 Wow. In total those teams are 22-38 in their last ten games, with five of them having losing records and only Atlanta being an outlier. \*\* Their .367 winning percentage is actually lower than they had been doing up top that point\*\*. They’re not playing better at all. They’re playing WORSE. Am I cherry picking? No, I deliberately decided to pick the six last place teams before I looked at the standings. How’re the second-to-last place teams doing? 26-34, which is precisely what you would expect given their record. Are the first place teams getting hammered? Nope; four have winning records, including one (Boston) that is 10-0, and the two that don’t are 5-5. So what’s the problem, again? ---
**Author:** ![quimper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7c8e57/32.png) [@quimper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quimper)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/26 "2016-09-26T15:49:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **Myth: Beware of Losing Teams With the Chance to Play Spoiler** > > …the spoiler mythology depends… on two dubious assumptions: First, that bad teams can play better merely by putting their minds to it; and second, that those teams would use that impressive willpower to keep an opponent out of October rather than to avoid being bad teams [in the first place] > **[» MLB Playoff Myths: Beware the Misleading Narratives!](https://grantland.com/the-triangle/mlb-playoff-myths-to-ignore/)** ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/27 "2016-09-26T18:14:51Z")
This sorta happens in baseball, occasionally, but it’s the manager that pulls the strings. Taking out a starter rather than letting him work out of a jam. Using his best relievers on consecutive nights. Playing all of his veterans instead of using any of the September call-ups, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Backwater_Under_Duck)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/28 "2016-09-27T00:41:13Z")
You know, in the _old_ days, in MLB, the top three teams in the league shared in the World Series money. I’m not going to provide specific internet material. I’ve read a lot of baseball biographies. It was common practice for the second and third teams to collude to exclude the fourth. Possibly the second and fourth team to exclude the third. And when the players knew the fix was in, they would place bets accordingly. And, according to Ty Cobb biographer Al Stump, Cobb most certainly bet on baseball. A lot of other guys too. ---
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/29 "2016-09-27T03:02:22Z")
I’m sick of all these damn teams that start out hot in April but then suck the rest of the year. Why can’t they just play their games in May through September the same way they do in April? And don’t get me started on lousy teams that nevertheless have a 6-game winning streak sometime in late June. What’s the deal with that? Fuck those teams. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/30 "2016-09-27T17:45:47Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Regarding individual performance, the key hitting stats—whether averages (AVG, OBP, SLG, etc.) or cumulative (HR, RBI, etc.)—reflect your performance over the course of a season. If you’ve been hitting like shit for five months, but turn in a good performance in September, your stats for the year are probably still going to be crappy. And a home run in April helps your AVG and OBP and SLG and HR and WAR figures just as much as a home run in September. > > Same principle goes for pitching. Not for the September callups. A good September can lead to a major league job next year, and this is especially true for teams that have bad records. And players on the bubble who can get hot and raise their numbers. A hit counts the same for a batting average no matter when it’s hit, but at the end of the season, a .250 hitter who’s hitting .210 in August is going to impress more than one who hit .280 in April. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/31 "2016-09-27T18:02:09Z")
So people get pissed when a team tries to win? And also get pissed when they try to tank for higher draft position? I guess you quite _literally_ can’t win for losing. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/32 "2016-09-27T18:04:32Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Not for the September callups. A good September can lead to a major league job next year, and this is especially true for teams that have bad records. > > And players on the bubble who can get hot and raise their numbers. A hit counts the same for a batting average no matter when it’s hit, but at the end of the season, a .250 hitter who’s hitting .210 in August is going to impress more than one who hit .280 in April. None of this is really relevant. I wasn’t arguing about the effect of your performance on whether or not you impress the people who are making roster decisions for next season. I was arguing about the impact of a September performance on your actual numbers. Your point about September callups is especially irrelevant to my argument. Many September callups, by definition, don’t have any stats for the rest of the season, at least in the majors. So their September numbers are, again by definition, going to be the ones that matter. And those who are called up after being sent down are being called back up precisely to see if they’ve managed to fix whatever was wrong with their game. Again, by definition, it’s their performance after the recall that is going to matter. As for the folks who play all year but might be “on the bubble,” your observation still begs the very question being addressed in this thread, to wit, whether a player (or a team) can produce an improved performance at the end of the season simply by willing it to happen. I’m not doubting that a solid September performance might convince a manager (or whoever) that you’re worth hanging onto, or worth offering a contract, for next year. And I’m not doubting that a player who is desperate to hang onto his job will do everything possible to play well at the end of the season. But the fact that he is desperate to do this does not mean he will succeed. And there is also no evidence that he wasn’t trying equally hard back in April or June or August, which is the central assertion made by the OP. And the fundamental fact of my observation stands: batting .290/.345/.450 with 6HR over 100 plate appearances in September has exactly the same effect on your season figures as batting .290/.345/.450 with 6HR over 100 plate appearances in April. Similarly, batting .204/.255/.301 with 0HR over 100 plate appearances in September has exactly the same effect on your season figures as batting .204/.255/.301 with 0HR over 100 plate appearances in April. That is a mathematical certainty, irrespective of whether your manager or team owner pays more attention to April figures or September figures. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/33 "2016-09-27T20:44:05Z")
> [@cg16](#): > > One NFL game comes to mind, I think it was the Arizona cards vs the minnesota vikings in 2003 and all minny had to do was win and they was in. I recall someone of the cardinals playing being pumped up to kill their chances and saying something along the lines of we can’t get it and will make sure yall can’t get in I’m a Packer fan; we made it into the playoffs thanks to that Cardinals win. The Cards were 3-12 going into that game, and Packer fans figured that there was no way that the Vikes would lose. Certainly the Cardinals knew that they could play spoiler, and were excited to do so…but an anecdote doesn’t prove a hypothesis. Also, there’s the matter of the Vikes not taking care of their own business, and possibly underperforming in a game that they thought they should win easily. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/34 "2016-09-27T21:26:42Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Also, there’s the matter of the Vikes not taking care of their own business, and possibly underperforming in a game that they thought they should win easily. Yes, the counter-cliché to the spoiler: “looking past this week’s opponent to next weeks’”. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/35 "2016-09-27T23:15:08Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > And the fundamental fact of my observation stands: batting .290/.345/.450 with 6HR over 100 plate appearances in September has exactly the same effect on your season figures as batting .290/.345/.450 with 6HR over 100 plate appearances in April. Similarly, batting .204/.255/.301 with 0HR over 100 plate appearances in September has exactly the same effect on your season figures as batting .204/.255/.301 with 0HR over 100 plate appearances in April. That is a mathematical certainty, irrespective of whether your manager or team owner pays more attention to April figures or September figures. But it has an effect on perception. People tend to remember the more recent performance, and they can be a sign that the player has made changes to improve himself, and will be a better batter the next year. Baseball is played by human beings, not numbers. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/36 "2016-09-27T23:16:40Z")
Perhaps, but your observation is still irrelevant to this particular discussion, and to the assertions made by the OP. There is basically no evidence, in the aggregate, that teams or players that were bad all season can suddenly make dramatic improvements at the end of the season with the explicit intention (and result) of knocking contending teams out of playoff spots. ---
**Author:** ![cg16](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@cg16](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cg16)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/37 "2016-09-28T00:27:59Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I’m a Packer fan; we made it into the playoffs thanks to that Cardinals win. The Cards were 3-12 going into that game, and Packer fans figured that there was no way that the Vikes would lose. Certainly the Cardinals knew that they could play spoiler, and were excited to do so…but an anecdote doesn’t prove a hypothesis. > > Also, there’s the matter of the Vikes not taking care of their own business, and possibly underperforming in a game that they thought they should win easily. That Packers team had no business making the playoffs after allowing a first down on 4th and 26 in a do or die game:smack: That entire defensive staff should have been fired ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/38 "2016-09-28T00:43:44Z")
> [@cg16](#): > > That Packers team had no business making the playoffs after allowing a first down on 4th and 26 in a do or die game:smack: That entire defensive staff should have been fired They fired the defensive coordinator (Ed Donatell) after that season, but that game definitely stuck in the craw of Packer fans even longer. I saw billboards in GB the next season, complaining about the 4th and 26 botch, and it was likely a factor in eventually costing Mike Sherman his job as head coach, two seasons later (though finishing 4-12 in 2005 was undoubtedly the big reason). ---
**Author:** ![cg16](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@cg16](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cg16)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/39 "2016-09-28T01:10:05Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > They fired the defensive coordinator (Ed Donatell) after that season, but that game definitely stuck in the craw of Packer fans even longer. I saw billboards in GB the next season, complaining about the 4th and 26 botch, and it was likely a factor in eventually costing Mike Sherman his job as head coach, two seasons later (though finishing 4-12 in 2005 was undoubtedly the big reason). That was yall SB year and Brett FART fucked it all up by throwing a hailmary in OT ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looks-like-whether-its-baseball-football-or-basketball-all-losings-team-do-the-same-thing/766757/40 "2016-09-28T01:16:56Z")
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