# Looters: Shoot on sight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528 "2005-09-01T01:33:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/21 "2005-09-01T02:17:01Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > If you left your home in New Orleans and evacuated to higher ground, do you really think you’d like just sitting back and watching your house be ransacked by roving bands of criminal thugs? Did I say anyone was enjoying it? > [@](#): > > It’s private property, pal. They have no right to be breaking in and stealing anything. Who the fuck said they did? I know they don’t have the right to steal. Stay on topic. We were talking about the best way to deal with looters, and I was talking about the best way to use the police and National Guard forces (and so on) that are down there. Awful as the looting is, I think it’s better to focus on saving people whenever possible instead of defending the propery and getting into potentially large firefights with armed gangs. That will kill people and, in my opinion, accomplish little else. Shit, with the diseases that may start spreading, these looters may die anyway. When these gangs are threatening people’s lives, that’s another issue and I already said so. Please learn to respond to what people say instead of making assumptions like these. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/22 "2005-09-01T02:17:08Z")
> [@Guy\_Incognito](#): > > Just because Lousiana supposedly authorizes the shooting of an individual in defense of property doesn’t make it right. If that’s actually the case, and I doubt it is, then shame on Louisiana. I wish someone would take my word at face value when it comes to my state. Anyway, Louisiana does allow lethal force in defense of property. [From Tulane Law Review:](http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Thelen1.html) The result of the new statutory system is to allow defense of property to justify a homicide, but only if the property is inside a dwelling, business, or motor vehicle. If the incident occurs outside of those areas a permittee can use reasonable force to defend his or her property, but not necessarily deadly force. [143] A permittee would not be wise to use his or her concealed handgun to defend [p.349] property outside of the three protected areas because use of a firearm could violate the limit of “reasonable force.” [144] Use of a handgun could be deadly force, even if the permittee does not intend to kill the attacker. The present system could produce results that do not hinge on the value of the property. A man can kill to defend his decrepit car even though it is only worth a few hundred dollars, but a merchant walking to the bank with several thousand dollars cannot use deadly force to defend that money. [145] If the distinction which allows defense of property is not based on value, it becomes difficult to discern upon what it is based. Perhaps the legislature is focusing on the right of an individual to be secure while on private property. One unlawfully intruding upon that private property forfeits the right to be protected against homicide. Conversely, a person in his own home gains the right to kill to prevent unlawful entry. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/23 "2005-09-01T02:18:16Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Okay, see here is the logic behind kiling someone stealing property. They will kill you in order to take it. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/24 "2005-09-01T02:23:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps you would be happier in a country like Saudi Arabia or Iran where people share your values. Nope, Texas works just as well. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/25 "2005-09-01T02:24:28Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > Okay, see here is the logic behind kiling someone stealing property. They will kill you in order to take it. So you must kill them first so there is no chance of it. They chose the life. I caught a kid trying to steal my car once. He didn’t try to kill me, he ran away. Imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/26 "2005-09-01T02:24:49Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Stop concentrating on the items and start thinking about the _behavior_ . You can _not_ let lawlessness run rampant without any fear of punishment. You have to draw the line somewhere and stop this mob mentality. They’re already stealing guns and raiding childrens’ hospitals. A cop has already been shot in the head. Where do you stop this? How long do you let it escalate before you retaliate? Are rapes OK during these desperate times? Do you simply allow rival gangs to start killing each other indiscriminately? What about the destruction of property not already damaged by Katrina? Do you let that go on? > > Put it this way: is there _any_ behavior that you would feel justified using deadly force to stop? Be careful not choke on all that straw. Just because I say that it is not morally justified to take a human life to defend property does not mean I therefore think it’s not justifiable to stop rape or murder. Were not talking about rape and murder. We’re talking about fucking DVD players. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/27 "2005-09-01T02:25:44Z")
> [@](#): > > And you have no right to KILL them for it. Their lives are still more important than your DVD player. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/28 "2005-09-01T02:26:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Be careful not choke on all that straw. Just because I say that it is not morally justified to take a human life to defend property does not mean I therefore think it’s not justifiable to stop rape or murder. Were not talking about rape and murder. We’re talking about fucking DVD players. Actually, we’re already talking about cop killers. But no big deal, right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/29 "2005-09-01T02:28:03Z")
No we’re talking about looters. If one looter kills a cop, that doesn’t mean that all looters are cop killers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/30 "2005-09-01T02:28:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who the fuck said they did? I know they don’t have the right to steal. Stay on topic. It would seem that, to some, advocating anything other than the use of deadly force represents tacit approval of crime. I think that’s just weird. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/31 "2005-09-01T02:30:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Be careful not choke on all that straw. Just because I say that it is not morally justified to take a human life to defend property does not mean I therefore think it’s not justifiable to stop rape or murder. Were not talking about rape and murder. We’re talking about fucking DVD players. But that is just not true, some looters are doing a lot more than just taking “DVD players”. As the Army & Navy roll in to help with repair & rescue the Guard needs to secure the city. There are confirmed reports on CNN, USA today, and the local [http://www.nola.com/](http://www.nola.com/) please see and read. Looting hurts rescue efforts > [@](#): > > Mayor Ray Nagin ordered 1,500 police to leave their search-and-rescue mission Wednesday to stop the increasingly-hostile looting So the looters are already endanger lives directly and indirectly. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/32 "2005-09-01T02:32:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No we’re talking about looters. If one looter kills a cop, that doesn’t mean that all looters are cop killers. Plenty of looters are already firing upon the cops. Here’s your cite: [http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html](http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html) \*New Orleans’ homeland security chief, Terry Ebbert, said looters were breaking into stores all over town and stealing guns. He said there are gangs of armed men moving around the city. At one point, officers stranded on the roof of a hotel were fired at by criminals on the street. The Times-Picayune newspaper reported that the gun section at a new Wal-Mart had been cleaned out by looters. Authorities said an officer was shot in the head and a looter was wounded in a shootout. The officer and looter were expected to survive. \* This kind of behavior OK with you? Any ideas off the top of your head on how to stop it? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/33 "2005-09-01T02:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > No we’re talking about looters. If one looter kills a cop, that doesn’t mean that all looters are cop killers. How do you suppose that cop was supposed to tell the difference? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/34 "2005-09-01T02:33:49Z")
excerpt from [http://www.nola.com/newsflash/weather/index.ssf?/base/national-50/1125536041100733.xml&storylist=hurricane](http://www.nola.com/newsflash/weather/index.ssf?/base/national-50/1125536041100733.xml&storylist=hurricane) > [@](#): > > Managers at a nursing home were prepared to cope with the power outages and had enough food for days, but then the looting began. The home’s bus driver was forced to surrender the vehicle to carjackers. > > Bands of people drove by the nursing home, shouting to residents, “Get out!” Eighty residents, most of them in wheelchairs, were being evacuated to other nursing homes in the state. > > “We had enough food for 10 days,” said Peggy Hoffman, the home’s executive director. “Now we’ll have to equip our department heads with guns and teach them how to shoot.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/35 "2005-09-01T02:35:29Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > But that is just not true, some looters are doing a lot more than just taking “DVD players”. > As the Army & Navy roll in to help with repair & rescue the Guard needs to secure the city. There are confirmed reports on CNN, USA today, and the local [http://www.nola.com/](http://www.nola.com/) please see and read. > Looting hurts rescue efforts > > So the looters are already endanger lives directly and indirectly. Nothing in that story syas anything about looters endangering lives. The examples in the article are only about people stealing food and water. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/36 "2005-09-01T02:38:17Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Plenty of looters are already firing upon the cops. Here’s your cite: [http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html](http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html) > > \*New Orleans’ homeland security chief, Terry Ebbert, said looters were breaking into stores all over town and stealing guns. He said there are gangs of armed men moving around the city. At one point, officers stranded on the roof of a hotel were fired at by criminals on the street. > The Times-Picayune newspaper reported that the gun section at a new Wal-Mart had been cleaned out by looters. > Authorities said an officer was shot in the head and a looter was wounded in a shootout. The officer and looter were expected to survive. \* > > This kind of behavior OK with you? Any ideas off the top of your head on how to stop it? Stop what? One looter shoots a cop so yiu see that as an excuse to start massacring people who had nothing to do with it. Sorry but that doesn’t wash with me. I have this pesky sense of right and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/37 "2005-09-01T02:38:31Z")
Looters endanger lives by spreading law enforcement/rescue too thin. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/38 "2005-09-01T02:38:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Nothing in that story syas anything about looters endangering lives. The examples in the article are only about people stealing food and water. The fact they are threatening hospitals, rescue centers, nursing homes, emergency vehicle has required the city to pull 1500 police (rescue workers) off of the rescue efforts to control lawlessness. If 1500 police are trying to stop looting and protect the invalids and emergency vehicles than they are not rescuing people. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/39 "2005-09-01T02:40:22Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > How do you suppose that cop was supposed to tell the difference? Tell the difference between what? Are you saying that we should assume that all looters are cop killers and murder them on sight? By that logic we should kill all football players becuase one of them killed his wife. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/40 "2005-09-01T02:40:42Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > You have to draw the line somewhere and stop this mob mentality. They’re already stealing guns and raiding childrens’ hospitals. A cop has already been shot in the head. Where do you stop this? How long do you let it escalate before you retaliate? Are rapes OK during these desperate times? Do you simply allow rival gangs to start killing each other indiscriminately? What about the destruction of property not already damaged by Katrina? Do you let that go on? You are making a fallacious argument based on an appeal to emotion. A children’s hospital was not in fact raided; apparently such an attempt was made, but it was turned away without using deadly force. A cop was in fact shot; no others have been so far, fortunately. The rest of the things mentioned so far exist only as rumor and yourn imagination; if and when such violence occurs, some use of deadly force may be necessary, but let’s leave it up to the actual professionals as to whether and when it should be used, shall we? How do you account for the fact that not a single law enforcement official that I know of has asked officially, or even lobbied for, the indiscriminate shooting of looters? The looting occurring in New Orleans and other areas at the moment is an extremely short-term phenomenon that will have ended entirely within a few days, whether or not deadly force is used to any degree. Why? 1) by that time nearly everyone will have been evacuated from the city; 2) by that time there will be a heavy enough presence of law enforcement, including armed National Guardsmen to effectively guard the city. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528.md?page=3)