# Looters: Shoot on sight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528 "2005-09-01T01:33:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/101 "2005-09-01T16:11:06Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Bush is talking zero tolerence towards NO looters. > [http://www.wdsu.com/news/4923471/detail.html](http://www.wdsu.com/news/4923471/detail.html) What should he say? “Hey, it’s not big deal. Let 'em loot!” Surely you are not implying that “zero tolerance” = shoot on sight. Are you? I can’t see that “shoot on sight” is a reasonable policy. The arguments for that policy being put forward in this thread look like after-the-fact justifications for decisions made on emotional reactions-- it’s hard to have sympathy for looters. We still live in society of laws, even in disaster areas. There is certainly a case to be made for granting more authority to the police in such situations, and we should indeed have a policy already in existence for ratching up that authority. Actions such as curfews, “no go” areas, etc. have their place, but we have to put ultimate value on human life. Setting up the cops to be judge, jury and executioner has no place in a society still run by the rule of law. This is a huge natural disaster, yes, but we’re not in the world of Mad Max yet, by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/102 "2005-09-01T16:22:41Z")
If you’re armed and shooting or threatening people, then by all means in these circumstances taking you out is justified. But shooting people for looting is nuts. Nobody’s life is worth less than merchandise, I don’t care if they do “look like they wouldn’t be missed.” ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/103 "2005-09-01T16:23:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And you have no right to KILL them for it. Their lives are still more important than your DVD player. You’re entitled to your opinion. IMO, the life of an armed thief is less important than my property, indeed, I believe a violent felon’s life has zero worth. I could let stealing food slide, but nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![LissyLou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5daacb/32.png) [@LissyLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LissyLou)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/104 "2005-09-01T16:25:08Z")
I’ve made a few assumptions based on what I’ve read and seen in the news; If I’m wrong, please correct me. 1. Every part of the city is flooded to one extent or another. 2. The only way out is by rescue. 3. Since rescue resources are already strained, they are not going to allow space for TV’s or DVD players or the like. If my assumtions are correct, then why not ignore the (non-violent) looters of these items. These items are history no matter where they end up. Even stored out of the water, 2 to 3 months of close proximity to foetid water in that heat will ruin them, surely. As for the jewelry, someone here said that it could not be retailed after flood contamination. If that is true, shop owners will be claiming it on their insurance no matter what. Looting it is victimless crime, not worth diverting rescue efforts. As for the armed looters, I would feel better about diverting a large portion of the rescue effort to stopping them if I thought they could be stopped quickly so that the rescue effort could continue unimpeded. To save the most lives, I say ignore them and get people the hell out there. Yes, what they are doing is horribly wrong, but any response we make that involves diverting manpower from the rescue effort results in a proportionally greater loss of life. Also, according to the news stories I’ve seen, these people are mostly hijacking supplies of food and water. Just a thought, perhaps, but do you suppose maybe, just maybe, that this means that _they don’t have any_? It doesn’t make what they are doing right; but so many people expressing moral outrage against people whose only _moral_ option, at this point, may be to quietly starve, is what I find most disquieting. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/105 "2005-09-01T16:39:47Z")
> [@](#): > > LissyLou: > As for the jewelry, someone here said that it could not be retailed after flood contamination. If that is true, shop owners will be claiming it on their insurance no matter what. Looting it is victimless crime, not worth diverting rescue efforts. Well your assumptions of insurance fraud aside, it’s already been noted that looting itself hinders the rescue efforts. You are totally off-base. This isn’t a matter of a DVD being worth more than a human life. It’s about establishing that armed looters don’t have the run of the city. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/106 "2005-09-01T16:41:10Z")
[Is this looting?](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina) > [@](#): > > Outside the Convention Center, the sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement. Thousands of storm refugees had been assembling outside for days, waiting for buses that did not come. > > At least seven bodies were scattered outside, and **hungry, desperate people who were tired of waiting broke through the steel doors to a food service entrance and began pushing out pallets of water and juice and whatever else they could find.** > > An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet. > > “I don’t treat my dog like that,” 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. “I buried my dog.” Should they be shot? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/107 "2005-09-01T16:42:53Z")
I misread, so I take back this bit: > [@](#): > > Well your assumptions of insurance fraud aside, But I will say it’s pretty ridiculous to let roving looters decide whether the jewelery is good enough for selling or refurbishing. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/108 "2005-09-01T16:44:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If you’re armed and shooting or threatening people, then by all means in these circumstances taking you out is justified. But shooting people for looting is nuts. Nobody’s life is worth less than merchandise, I don’t care if they do “look like they wouldn’t be missed.” But why not just let the looters decide? It works out both ways, we stop the looting and only lose lives less valuable than merchandise. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/109 "2005-09-01T16:51:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Should they be shot? Of course. I say we line up all dead ladies in wheelchairs against a wall and shoot them. ---
**Author:** ![LissyLou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5daacb/32.png) [@LissyLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LissyLou)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/110 "2005-09-01T16:54:02Z")
Looting that involves stealing supplies or vehicles, or threatening rescue workers impedes the rescue efforts, sure, but explain to me how stealing jewelry does. Once again, not saying it’s right, just saying it’s not worth diverting police attention toward in this circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/111 "2005-09-01T16:56:07Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > But why not just let the looters decide? It works out both ways, we stop the looting and only lose lives less valuable than merchandise. Huh? I’m saying nobody’s life is worth less than merchandise. Why would a looter be empowered to decide is somebody isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/112 "2005-09-01T17:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > LissyLou: > Looting that involves stealing supplies or vehicles, or threatening rescue workers impedes the rescue efforts, sure, but explain to me how stealing jewelry does. By having people waving guns around and generally giving an atmosphere of lawlessness thus scaring away rescue workers. These aren’t (for the most part) combat medics going in to help out. And how do we know they only have jewelry in those bags? Maybe they’re hoarding medical supplies, generaters, flashlights, etc. You know, useful stuff that rescue workers should be allowed to “loot”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/113 "2005-09-01T17:08:37Z")
> [@LissyLou](#): > > Also, according to the news stories I’ve seen, these people are mostly hijacking supplies of food and water. Just a thought, perhaps, but do you suppose maybe, just maybe, that this means that _they don’t have any_? It doesn’t make what they are doing right; but so many people expressing moral outrage against people whose only _moral_ option, at this point, may be to quietly starve, is what I find most disquieting. Er, “hijacking supplies of food and water” sounds like you’re talking about people holding up the relief crews to take it all rather than accepting their fair share. I presume that isn’t what you mean (if you’re trying to make a case against, rather than for, a shoot-on-sight policy). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/114 "2005-09-01T17:10:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > By having people waving guns around and generally giving an atmosphere of lawlessness thus scaring away rescue workers. These aren’t (for the most part) combat medics going in to help out. > > And how do we know they only have jewelry in those bags? Maybe they’re hoarding medical supplies, generaters, flashlights, etc. You know, useful stuff that rescue workers should be allowed to “loot”. Why are we conflating people carrying guns with “looters”? A looter doesn’t need a gun. Looters go into a store and carry stuff out because there is nobody there minding the store. Shooting, threatening, confronting, rioting… these are not looting. Deadly force is appropriate to prevent some crimes, looting is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/115 "2005-09-01T17:11:36Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > I don’t think it’s a good idea for the police to shoot someone for taking televisions out of stores. Just make them drop it and move on. And if they refuse to drop it? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/116 "2005-09-01T17:13:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, in picture 1, the woman is clearly carrying bread. I agree with “finding food”. > > In picture 2, the man is carrying beer. I am a bit more uncomfortable with classifying that as a survivial necessity. If you can’t find potable water and can find beer, the latter is a survival necessity. ---
**Author:** ![LissyLou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5daacb/32.png) [@LissyLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LissyLou)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/117 "2005-09-01T17:27:48Z")
Honestly I thought waving guns and frightening rescue workers was covered under “threatening rescue workers” YMMV. I admit that I am supposing that this jewelry stealing is unarmed(or at least not actively gun-waving) looters helping themselves to items in abandoned stores, rather than violently taking it from people in the midst of an area where a rescue operation is being staged. And **CarnalK** , you specifically brought up my opinion on jewely looters. So that’s what I assumed we were discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/118 "2005-09-01T17:38:27Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > And if they refuse to drop it? Realistically I guess there’s not much they can do once the looters realize the police aren’t going to make any arrest. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/119 "2005-09-01T17:44:45Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > [Is this looting?](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina)Should they be shot? The AP reporter who doesn’t now how to spell “chaise longue?” Yes, he _should_ be shot. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528/120 "2005-09-01T17:47:09Z")
_Know! Know!_ (Damn Gaudere’s law . . .) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looters-shoot-on-sight/319528.md?page=7)