# Looting of National Heritage in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436 "2003-04-13T15:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/61 "2003-04-14T01:53:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > Yeah, and I’ve read about all the Iraqis treated by military doctors, too. The images of US doctors treating Iraqis are pure propaganda and are _not_ representative of the situation in Iraq. But, in any case, so what? Yeah, first we bomb them and then we treat them. Ain’t we nice guys? We had a guy like that at work. he’d create the problem and then solve it and get credit for solving it. I guess the Iraqis ought to be grateful that the Americans don’t go around finishing off the wounded Iraqis while saying they hate to see them suffering. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/62 "2003-04-14T01:59:07Z")
Good deeds are propaganda. Bad deeds are fact. Oh, I get it now. Thanks for straightening that out, sailor. And I think that about does it for this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/63 "2003-04-14T02:15:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > **Sailor: Not quite the same thing. A better analogy is this. Someone is dying in the Smithsonian. The door is locked. You buldoze the door in order to save the dying person. Then looters come in and steal treasures.** No, the analogy was exactly right the first time. The US government corresponds to the Iraqi government. The Smithsonian corresponds to the Baghdad Museum. There weren’t any “dying people” in the Baghdad Museum. The US was morally amd legally negligent in failing to protect the interests of the Iraqi people. It would have been extremely easy to present an armed presence at the museum. A few armed Marines would have been sufficient to deter any would be looters, and it would have been a far more useful than loafing around the presidential palaces. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/64 "2003-04-14T02:18:13Z")
To my mind, John Mace, the treasures in Iraq’s museum are literally priceless and one of the heritages of the entire species. We have failed to protect them as we should. I know this statement will piss off the board’s liberals, but I think we should shoot a few looters to drive the message home: leave your country’s treasures alone. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/65 "2003-04-14T02:22:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*All they had just done was fight their way to the city center to capture a presidential palace and several government buildings in one afternoon. Damn slackers. :rolleyes: \*\* Who did they fight? They pretty much walked into town unchallenged. They created the chaos in the streets and they were responsible for stopping it. If they’ve got time to lay around on their backs, they’ve got time to protect the world’s most precious archaeological heritage. What am I paying these guys for anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/66 "2003-04-14T02:27:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote \* > \*\*To my mind, John Mace, the treasures in Iraq’s museum are literally priceless and one of the heritages of the entire species. We have failed to protect them as we should. > I know this statement will piss off the board’s liberals, but I think we should shoot a few looters to drive the message home: leave your country’s treasures alone. \*\* This liberal sort of agrees with you. As I said above, I think an armed presence would have been enough, and I don’t think any shooting would have been necessary, but a few arrests, maybe, or a well placed bullet in somebody’s ass would have sent a strong message too. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/67 "2003-04-14T02:30:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Good deeds are propaganda. Bad deeds are fact. Oh, I get it now. Thanks for straightening that out, sailor. And I think that about does it for this debate. \*\* Nope. Good deeds are good deeds and bad deeds are bad deeds and both good deeds and bad deeds are facts. But the situation in Iraq is majorly one of looting and one of chaos and scarcity. The kind American doctors treating the Iraqis is very much the exception and not the rule. That is what I am seeing in the news and reporters are saying those things are as staged as the stuff the Iraqis were feeding them and not represenative in the least. And yet if you go to the military web site you only see the photos of the kind American doctors and no mention of the rest of what’s going on. Yes, in my book that is pure propaganda. When stage a few “facts” which are not representative in the least of the true situation and you try to pass that off as what is really happening, that is pretty much lying. > [@](#): > > [http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2003/g030411-D-6570C.html](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2003/g030411-D-6570C.html) > > Iraqis share a laugh with a U.S. Army soldier. (.jpg 52 KB) > Jubilant Iraqis cheer U.S. Army soldiers. (.jpg 56 KB) > Happy Iraqis pose with a U.S. Army soldier. (.jpg 48 KB) > A U.S. medic gives medical attention to Iraqi civilians. (.jpg 48 KB) > Two young Iraqis give the thumbs up sign to coalition soldiers. (.jpg 44 KB) > A U.S. Marine stands with an Iraqi farm boy during a humanitarian visit. (.jpg 36 KB) > Special operations crewmembers transmit over the airwaves over Iraq. (.jpg 60 KB) > A U.S. airman greets Iraqi children while on patrol. (.jpg 56 KB) > A U.S. Marine shares some time with an Iraqi girl. (.jpg 68 KB) > A water distribution depot in southern Iraq. (.jpg 56 KB) Jeez, if we would have known war was this much fun we would have asked for it much sooner. No dead, no injured, just happy Iraqis. This is the American version of Baghdag Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/68 "2003-04-14T02:32:08Z")
In the above post I meant to say I don’t think any _killing_ would be necessary, not shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/69 "2003-04-14T05:36:43Z")
> [@](#): > > They pretty much walked into town unchallenged. The famous picture in question, showing some of the Third Infantry Division lounging in a presidential palace, was taken after they fought their way from the Baghdad Airport to the presidential palace. They faced resistance the whole way in. They killed over one thousand Iraqi soldiers on the “walk” which lasted [ten hours](http://www.cannylink.com/headlines.htm#U.S.%20Forces%20Storm%20Into%20Heart%20of%20Baghdad). > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. forces in tanks and armored vehicles stormed into the center of Baghdad on Monday, seizing one of Saddam Hussein palaces in a bold daylight raid aimed at demonstrating the Americans can come and go as they please. > > In the afternoon, some 10 hours after the battle began, Iraqi snipers fired on U.S. soldiers from rooms in the state-owned Al-Rashid Hotel while the platoon conducted a patrol in a neighborhood near the palace, soldiers said. U.S. tanks returned fire with their main guns and .50-caliber machine guns. > More than 70 tanks and 60 Bradley fighting vehicles took part in the lightning thrust by the Army’s 3rd Infantry Division, with tank-killing A-10 Warthog planes and pilotless drones providing air cover against mostly disorganized resistance. > At the city’s southern edge, though, Marines and Army troops faced bloody fighting. > Two Marines were killed and two wounded when their armored troop carrier was hit by an artillery shell at a bridge spanning a canal. The Marines advanced into the capital by foot after the Iraqis blew apart the bridge. > Also, a group of U.S. armored personnel carriers in southern Baghdad was hit by rockets, according to field reports. Six American soldiers were reported missing and a large number were wounded… > …Tanks barreled into the capital on the western side of the Tigris River at 6 a.m. As they approached Baghdad along Highway 8, they met moderate resistance — mostly assault fire and rocket-propelled grenades from infantry… They were still fighting around the palace when the photo was taken. Most importantly, the _looting hadn’t even started yet_. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/70 "2003-04-14T10:59:36Z")
From [here](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=396743) > [@](#): > > They lie across the floor in tens of thousands of pieces, the priceless antiquities of Iraq’s history. The looters had gone from shelf to shelf, systematically pulling down the statues and pots and amphorae of the Assyrians and the Babylonians, the Sumerians, the Medes, the Persians and the Greeks and hurling them on to the concrete. > > Our feet crunched on the wreckage of 5,000-year-old marble plinths and stone statuary and pots that had endured every siege of Baghdad, every invasion of Iraq throughout history \_ only to be destroyed when America came to “liberate” the city. The Iraqis did it. They did it to their own history, physically destroying the evidence of their own nation’s thousands of years of civilisation. > … snip … > . “We need the American soldiers to guard what we have left. We need the Americans here. We need policemen.” But all that the museum guard, Abdul-Setar Abdul-Jaber, experienced yesterday was gun battles between looters and local residents, the bullets hissing over our heads outside the museum and skittering up the walls of neighbouring apartment blocks Could it be possible that the Pentagon didn’t think of the consequences of the invasion? The invaders are morally and legally obliged to look after these people and property. Lets hope they do it and do it quick. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/71 "2003-04-14T13:05:42Z")
Today the Iraqi National Library has been looted and burnt. Priceless documents have been lost forever. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/72 "2003-04-14T14:54:04Z")
Actually, using the logic from Sep 11 and forward, the Iraqis didn’t loot the museum because they are muslim, and muslims wouldn’t do such a thing. Problem solved. Certainly it is a shame, and I agree that some enterprising folks were thinking of the income that the treasures would bring after having been so poor for so long, but I also thing the looting is a self-impose redistribution of the wealth. Hopefully, the curators were able to store some of it prior to the looting. I can’t really lay the entire blame at the feet of the US, though. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/73 "2003-04-14T17:19:22Z")
Has anyone noticed, posted, or otherwise become aware of a list of what was lost/damaged/destroyed? It’s a tragedy for the species, quite aside from all politics. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/74 "2003-04-14T17:38:53Z")
And another observation is that the Iraqis did all of the looting themselves. They are the ones burning and pillaging their own culture, their art treasures, their govts equipment and they are the ones who are lawless and uncivilized. …but it is the Americans fault that they acted that way. it is the americans fault that the good citizens of Iraqi stood by and did nothing to save their treasures. it is the americans fault for removing the despotic and tyrannical leader only to expose the lawless and despotic people. and it is most certainly the americans fault for creating a society where the good are at the mercy of the evil and cower before their onslaught. If the US had really been an army of occupation then they would have followed the history and methods of all occupying nations: looters and criminals were shot on sight, journalists would be censored, and all citizens will work for military government and all dissenters will be rounded up and shot. That wouldve made things quite easy and law and order would be quite assured. Instead the arabs bellyache about the criminal behavior of their fellow arabs and whine and cry about what needs to be done instead of just doing it themselves. This is called freedom gentlepeople! You get to do what you decide to do. No one tells you to do it, just do it! No one gets to do it for you. You want to be liberated and free? start acting like it! Take responsibility for your actions, pick yourself off the ground and make something of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/75 "2003-04-14T21:34:02Z")
I read in another news report that the curator at the museum ran down the street to ask some American soldiers to help but they couldn’t be bothered to help. If I were an American soldier I would be so outraged I’d go chase the looters off. I do not understand how they could just stand by there for something so important. I just can’t understand it. Have our schools gotten so bad that our people have no sensitivity towards history and learning? For a teeny effort they could have averted a national tragedy, and they were _ASKED_ not only by Iraqis, but frantically by researchers in the U.S. who were afraid of this happening. But I’m not laying the blame entirely on Americans, in my OP I wanted to know if anyone had interviewed the pillagers to get inside their heads. Why smash things? Why? Someone destroyed the catalog, now that’s a pretty senseless act. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/76 "2003-04-14T22:00:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > And another observation is that the Iraqis did all of the looting themselves. They are the ones burning and pillaging their own culture, their art treasures, their govts equipment and they are the ones who are lawless and uncivilized. > > …but it is the Americans fault that they acted that way. > > it is the americans fault that the good citizens of Iraqi stood by and did nothing to save their treasures. > > it is the americans fault for removing the despotic and tyrannical leader only to expose the lawless and despotic people. > > and it is most certainly the americans fault for creating a society where the good are at the mercy of the evil and cower before their onslaught. Gimme a break. Are you telling me the Iraquis are somehow incapable of being civilised? If you create the same conditons in Los Angeles you will have the same result. If China bombed LA and created the conditions for chaos and looting would you say they have no responsibility? The Iraqis had their system of government which may not been of the liking of the USA but which seemed to work better than what the USA has provided so far. I do not care who is to blame. The USA has created the conditions for this disaster to happen. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/77 "2003-04-14T23:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Gimme a break. Are you telling me the Iraquis are somehow incapable of being civilised? \*\* Theyre looting hospitals arent they? They cant seem to stop themselves without some help whther it was the death squads from the former regime to American soldiers. I would say they have a potential to act civilized by themselves, but they keep complaining and protesting but wont do a thing about it themselves. I only comment on what is observable. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If you create the same conditons in Los Angeles you will have the same result. If China bombed LA and created the conditions for chaos and looting would you say they have no responsibility? \*\* We had a spat of riots and looting here in Los Angeles, most dramatic that comes to mind was after the LAPD got off the Rodney King beating. I dont remember blaming the Canadians for it. Heck I dont even remember any looter blaming the LAPD. They looted. They took advantage of a bad situation and became lawless. At least they knew where the blame lies. They acted like criminals and when asked why they did it, they say “because everyone else did”. The looters are responsibel for their actions. Order was maintained later as will Iraq. Give it TIME. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The Iraqis had their system of government which may not been of the liking of the USA but which seemed to work better than what the USA has provided so far. I do not care who is to blame. The USA has created the conditions for this disaster to happen. \*\* Oh well, maybe we should ask the Iraqi cry babies if they’d like to have Saddam back? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/78 "2003-04-15T00:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > ## _Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE)_ [The US has been] removing the despotic and tyrannical leader only to expose the lawless and despotic people. > > ## I would say they have a potential to act civilized by themselves […] > > Oh well, maybe we should ask the Iraqi cry babies if they’d like to have Saddam back? I’m lost for words! These are some of the most moronic statement i’ve seen here yet. Fighting ignorance? Yeah… ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/79 "2003-04-15T00:44:56Z")
First “liberate”, then taunt the bastards. Huh, **Slayer**? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436/80 "2003-04-15T01:08:00Z")
I am not a liberator. I am an observer. If there be people there that can freely and shamelessly bash the group of people who removed the burdern of oppression from their shoulders for acts of lawlessness that they will not take responsibility for, then I can shamelessly bash the ignorance of their actions. I am not fighting their ignorance but merely pointing it out. Its up to them to see and decide whether or not to learn. I, for one, do not mind the looting. I do mind that people would lay blame on others for their unlawful actions. It seems to be an international trait to blame everyone else but themselves. I thought that was strictly an american trait. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/looting-of-national-heritage-in-iraq/168436.md?page=5)