# Lord help me, I agree with Sarah Palin **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361 "2010-05-13T23:34:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/61 "2010-05-17T16:10:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s also a safety issue, not a political issue. Hispanic kids would not be safe there. That’s based on fear, not reality. Look, I was very much against this law at first, but was educated about it, as you should have been, and now see that I was wrong. I still think it’s bad policy, but I don’t see it as a dangerous law. You are continuing to spout bullshit in this thread that you know is not true. The law does not require American citizens to carry documentation. And it does not require non-citizens to carry any documentation that federal law doesn’t already require them to carry. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/62 "2010-05-17T16:23:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Cite that it requires American citizens to carry documentation? > > Move the goal posts much? > > At any rate, can you tell us what you meant when you said kids would be “forced” to do something? I meant that Hispanic kids should not be forced to go someplace unsafe against their will. Even if they do want to go, it would still be irresponsible for the school to let them go, because the school is responsible for their safety. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/63 "2010-05-17T16:24:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s based on fear, not reality. > > Look, I was very much against this law at first, but was educated about it, as you should have been, and now see that I was wrong. I still think it’s bad policy, but I don’t see it as a dangerous law. > > You are continuing to spout bullshit in this thread that you know is not true. The law does not require American citizens to carry documentation. And it does not require non-citizens to carry any documentation that federal law doesn’t already require them to carry. How can you tell the difference between a citizen without documentation and an undocumented resident without documentation? ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/64 "2010-05-17T17:19:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I meant that Hispanic kids should not be forced to go someplace unsafe against their will. Again, nobody is being forced to do anything against their will, except cancelling a trip they’ve been looking forward to and raising money for. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Even if they do want to go, it would still be irresponsible for the school to let them go, because the school is responsible for their safety. Also zero evidence that anybody’s safety would be in doubt. In fact, the school superintendent, when first addressing the trip’s cancellation, stated outright that it was because the trip [“would not be aligned with our beliefs and values.”](http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/Richardobert/83295) They started making up safety concerns only after the backlash started. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/65 "2010-05-17T17:26:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I meant that Hispanic kids should not be forced to go someplace unsafe against their will. Who is forcing them to go anywhere? > [@](#): > > Even if they do want to go, it would still be irresponsible for the school to let them go, because the school is responsible for their safety. There is no evidence that there would be a safety issue. > [@](#): > > How can you tell the difference between a citizen without documentation and an undocumented resident without documentation? You claimed that the law required American citizens to carry documentation. Either admit that’s wrong, or back it up with a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/66 "2010-05-17T17:34:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who is forcing them to go anywhere? You guys apparently want to. > [@](#): > > There is no evidence that there would be a safety issue. Sure there is. They would be going to a place where state law requires them to be harassed by the cops. And doesn’t Arizona also have those “Minuteman” rednecks that go around shooting at Mexicans? > [@](#): > > You claimed that the law required American citizens to carry documentation. Either admit that’s wrong, or back it up with a cite. It does. It requires legal residents to prove the legality of their status at the demand of law enforcement. If this is not the case then the law would mean nothing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/67 "2010-05-17T17:37:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You guys apparently want to. What? Quote the post where I said that. > [@](#): > > Sure there is. They would be going to a place where state law requires them to be harrassed by the cops. No, the law does not require that. > [@](#): > > It does. It requires legal residents to prove the legality of their status at the demand of law enforcement. If this is not the case then the law would mean nothing. You said “American citizens”, not “legal residents”. Are you retracting your claim? And federal law already requires this of “legal residents”, so by your logic, Hispanic kids aren’t safe anywhere in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/68 "2010-05-17T17:51:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sure there is. They would be going to a place where state law requires them to be harassed by the cops. > > And doesn’t Arizona also have those “Minuteman” rednecks that go around shooting at Mexicans? Okay, I’m out. There’s just no way to argue with this kind of idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/69 "2010-05-17T17:53:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What? Quote the post where I said that. If you think the kids have a right to choose not to go, then what is your problem? > [@](#): > > No, the law does not require that. I disagree. > [@](#): > > You said “American citizens”, not “legal residents”. Are you retracting your claim? Of course not. Legal residents includes American citizens. The law allows the cops to badger anyone at all for documents. It’s not like there’s some way the cops can tell who’s a citizen and who isn’t. A person without documents is a person without documents. There is no way to tell their residency or citizenship status if they aren’t carrying documents. I don’t get how you think that it would be possible to enforce this law with harassing citizens. The law basically presumes that all brown people are illegal aliens until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/70 "2010-05-17T17:59:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you think the kids have a right to choose not to go, then what is your problem? I already said each kid can choose for himself whether to go or not, provided the administration actually agrees to the game. Right now, they can’t choose-- the administration chose for them. > [@](#): > > I disagree. And you’re wrong. If you’re right, then prove it. > [@](#): > > Of course not. Legal residents includes American citizens. The law allows the cops to badger anyone at all for documents. It’s not like there’s some way the cops can tell who’s a citizen and who isn’t. A person without documents is a person without documents. There is no way to tell their residency or citizenship status if they aren’t carrying documents. I don’t get how you think that it would be possible to enforce this law with harassing citizens. The law basically presumes that all brown people are illegal aliens until proven otherwise. The law does not require American citizens to carry documentation. That is a fact, and you’re hand waving doesn’t change that fact. Whether or not some citizens might be “harassed” because of this law is a different matter. American citizens are harassed every day because of various laws. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/71 "2010-05-17T18:06:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And federal law already requires this of “legal residents”, so by your logic, Hispanic kids aren’t safe anywhere in the US. No, federal law requires it of legal _alien_ residents. It does not require it of citizens. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/72 "2010-05-17T18:07:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sure there is. They would be going to a place where state law requires them to be harassed by the cops. > > And doesn’t Arizona also have those “Minuteman” rednecks that go around shooting at Mexicans? Where on earth do you get your information? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/73 "2010-05-17T18:21:42Z")
Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/74 "2010-05-17T18:23:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The law does not require American citizens to carry documentation. How else are they supposed to prove their citizenship when asked? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/75 "2010-05-17T19:11:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How else are they supposed to prove their citizenship when asked? I fail to see the crisis…How many times a week does an individual already have to show a picture ID/Driver’s License while doing normal day-to-day activities ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/76 "2010-05-17T19:14:56Z")
Zero to the cops, unless they’re pulled over for a driving citation. They are certainly never asked to prove their citizenship to the cops. That avoids the question anyway. This law says that people have to prove their citizenship if asked by the cops. How are citizens suppsed to do that without carrying documentation, and how is the law going to be enforcable without bugging citizens? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/77 "2010-05-17T21:57:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How else are they supposed to prove their citizenship when asked? They don’t have to. Cop asks you if you’re a citizen, and you say "yes’, end of conversation. The cop can’t make you prove you’re a citizen. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > No, federal law requires it of legal alien residents. It does not require it of citizens. Yes, I should have said resident aliens. Citizens don’t have to carry papers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/78 "2010-05-17T21:59:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This law says that people have to prove their citizenship if asked by the cops. You keep saying that, and it’s wrong. Cite the part of the law that says citizens have to prove their citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/79 "2010-05-17T22:27:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They don’t have to. Cop asks you if you’re a citizen, and you say "yes’, end of conversation. The cop can’t make you prove you’re a citizen. You seriously think that this is how it will go down in real life? **Cop** : I think that you are an illegal alien and not a citizen. Show me your papers **Person:** Actually, I AM a citizen of the United States, and as such, I am not required to carry proof of citizenship with me. **Cop:** Oh, OK then, I will take your word for it. Carry on. I think it would look a little closer to this: **Cop** : I think that you are an illegal alien and not a citizen. Show me your papers **Person:** Actually, I AM a citizen of the United States, and as such, I am not required to carry proof of citizenship with me. **Cop:** Well, I say you ARE an illegal immigrant with no papers, so you’re coming with me to the station. If you don’t come willingly, I will arrest you. If you resist, I will subdue you with all appropriate force. ETA: Later… Cop: Sorry for the inconvenience, citizen, and sorry for throwing you in the cells overnight until you could track down your roommate to bring your ID in. Next day… **Cop #2** : I think that you are an illegal alien and not a citizen. Show me your papers Rinse and repeat The net result is, that for all practical purposes, this citizen MUST carry papers showing proof of citizenship with them every time the even take out the garbage, or there is a danger of them spending the night in the Pokey. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361/80 "2010-05-17T23:29:51Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The net result is, that for all practical purposes, this citizen MUST carry papers showing proof of citizenship with them every time the even take out the garbage, or there is a danger of them spending the night in the Pokey. I _would_ tend to agree with those who say this would have little practical effect because cops already have the power to do stuff like this…_except_, that now, if you have a cop who isn’t harassing brown people as much as some local yahoos think he should, he can be sued. Many cops will think “hey, why take that chance, I think I’m gonna ask everyone I see if they’re a citizen. Not my jobsworth so might as well ask as much as possible.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-help-me-i-agree-with-sarah-palin/539361.md?page=5)