# Lord of the Rings: ending is a tragedy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 23, 2002, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304 "2002-11-23T03:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/21 "2002-11-25T05:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*The scouring of the Shire won’t be in the movies, the decisions has already been made. According to Peter Jackson the only reference to it is in Sam’s vision of the hobbits being rounded up and the Shire burning. \*\* cite? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/22 "2002-11-25T20:04:37Z")
I think PJ says on the DVD commentary that the scouring is out. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/23 "2002-11-25T20:34:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*But back on topic: You can’t really say that the ending of _Lord of the Rings_ is tragic, because the ending of the book isn’t in the book. Tolkien emphasized again and again that stories don’t really have beginnings and endings, they just merge into other stories. To find a beginning to his works, you have to go all the way back to The Beginning in the Music of the Ainur, and to find an end, you have to go all the way to The End, at the Second Music. If anything in between seems tragic, that’s just because we haven’t gotten to the ending yet. \*\* Hmmmmm. You’ve reminded me of Tolkien’s concept of _eucatastrophe_ – it’s a bit hard to explain, so I’ll quote from “On Fairy Stories”: > [@](#): > > At least I would say that Tragedy is the true form of Drama, its highest function; but the opposite is true of Fairy-story. Since we do not appear to possess a word that expresses this opposite – I will call it _Eucatastrophe._ The _eucatastrophic_ tale is the true form of fairy-tale, and its highest function. > > The consolation of fairy-stories, the joy of the happy ending: or more correctly of the good catastrophe, the sudden joyous “turn” (for there is no true end to the fairy-tale): this joy, which is one of the things which fairy-stories can produce supremely well, is not essentially “escapist,” nor “fugitive.” In its fairy-tale – or otherworld – setting, it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on to recur. It does not deny the existence of _dyscatastrophe,_ of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is _evangelium,_ giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief. This is what you have to keep in mind when considering LotR as tragedy – it is tragic, but only within the world; Tolkien leaves it open to something more. (For another example of _eucatastrophe_ in action see Tolkien’s allegorically autobiographical short “Leaf by Niggle.” I feel compelled to plug it; it’s a beautiful little story.) ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/24 "2002-11-26T18:19:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\*Such is the continuing tragedy of Arda Marred. Every work of the children of Iluvatar will be marred by the discord of Melkor. Yet each defeat will bring unlooked for victory, and the triumph of the spirit of Ainulindalë, until after Dagor Dagorath, at which time Eä will be remade aright. \*\* So I’m going to have to buy ANOTHER director’s cut DVD of Lord of the Rings after the apocalypse? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/25 "2002-11-27T05:07:23Z")
Toad, No, you will have to buy the seventeen disk DVD set for Silmarillion! First we have to talk someone into making it, of course. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/26 "2002-11-27T15:32:46Z")
I can’t wait to see how Jackson envisions the Fall of Gondolin! ---
**Author:** ![G.Cornelius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@G.Cornelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.Cornelius)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/27 "2002-11-27T17:16:47Z")
I thought that part of what Tolkien was trying to do was to write a sort of pre-mythology for Europe. As such it was essential that the earth is left more or less as it appears in later (real) european myths. For example, I think that there is some hint that dragons survive the end of the Third age… ---
**Author:** ![SwimmingwithChickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SwimmingwithChickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwimmingwithChickens)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/28 "2002-11-27T18:28:48Z")
Wait, what is this you speak of G. Cornelius? Dragons surviving the third age? Did I miss something? Please detail… ---
**Author:** ![G.Cornelius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@G.Cornelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.Cornelius)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/29 "2002-11-28T09:05:24Z")
There is a section on the survival of dragons at the end of this web-site: [http://gofree.indigo.ie/~warrenl/Tolkien/Dragons/TheGreatWorms.html](http://gofree.indigo.ie/~warrenl/Tolkien/Dragons/TheGreatWorms.html) ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/30 "2002-11-28T20:40:18Z")
While most of what Tolkien wrote was probably formed by his experiences in WWI, I think the deeper subtext that runs through both the Silmarillion and LOTR is that all things are diminished over time. That is: things were somehow better in the past than the present. This is a persistent Urban Legend that seems to be impossible to eradicate. According to the DVD Tolkien “hated” technology. But he never had to live in a real medievil villlage. I bet for all of Tolkien’s hatred of technology, once he returned from the war he never had to (or wanted to) weave his own clothes, wash his own clothes, eat unrefrigerated food, or walk through streets awash with unprosessed sewage. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/31 "2002-11-28T23:12:11Z")
Well, consider also that Tolkien firmly believed that things change, often seemingly for the worse, but always revealing more of God’s mind. And he believed of the inevitable triumph of God’s will. ---
**Author:** ![tagyerit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@tagyerit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagyerit)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/32 "2002-12-17T03:11:11Z")
My First post. You might want to look into Wagner’s opera “Twilight of the Gods” for some insight into the passing of Middle Earth. While Tolkien was not creating a metaphor, he certainly would have been aware of other writers who wrote (or rewrote) myths. Wagner’s story was in fact a ring trilogy that led to the passing of the gods. While Tolkien avoids the use of gods in LOTR, keep in mind that Wagner’s gods were more often than not demi-gods. That is humans with more powerful characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/33 "2002-12-17T03:50:52Z")
The whole “things were better in the past” thing isn’t an Urban Legend. It’s a plain ol’ unadorned Legend–like they had in the old days, when men were men and … um, but I digress. Before the Industrial Revolution, pretty much everyone believed that things were better at some point in the distant past. The ancient Greeks had their myth of the Golden Age, while many enlightened folks during the 1700s thought that civilization had reached its apex with the ancient Greeks. Things have changed since the Industrial Revolution. Nowadays, we all believe that things will be better in the future, with the rocket cars and the moving sidewalks and the videophones. ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_Sparticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@I\_am\_Sparticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_Sparticus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/34 "2002-12-17T04:32:49Z")
Wagner’s Ring was a four parter. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/35 "2002-12-17T11:31:43Z")
Welcome, Tagyerit. Well, so’s _Stuart Little_ a tragedy (the book, not the sugary movie). I really liked both LOTR and SL as a kid, because they were in such jarring contrast to the Disney vision of the world, and both rang true for me. People die, epochs end, the Long Ears and Short Ears leave only their statues on Easter Island… I’ve always detested fake, treacley literary endings, and I think this is due to my early exposure to works like LOTR that portrayed a more mixed experience. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/36 "2002-12-17T13:12:53Z")
A couple of things here… First a spoiler… errr… call it an anti spoiler: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer J > > apprantly they have Saruman being pushed out of Orthanc by Wormtongue and then falling on a spike. I cant believe that is true after all Peter Jackson did to ‘stay faithful’ to the books. He;d effectivly be re-writing it himself, which is not the idea. Has anyone else heard this, i just refuse to believe it. TTT does not show this. Of course one of the reasons is that the story doesn’t go that far in the movie. It _may_ happen, just not in this movie. Remember, the movies don’t match up exactly with the books. Now for Elanor. My hunch (not a spoiler) is that at the end of the movie, the whole thing is actually Sam reading the story to his daughter. This is how we’ll leave the film, seeing the Shire after Sam tucks his daughter in. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/37 "2002-12-17T13:14:02Z")
I knew I should have previewed… ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/38 "2002-12-17T15:17:25Z")
Plus, it’s gotta suck to have your finger bitten off. ---
**Author:** ![Alto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Alto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alto)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/39 "2002-12-17T16:10:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I am Sparticus \* > \*\*Wagner’s Ring was a four parter. \*\* Yes and no. It’s a prelude plus three parts. Just like LOTR, to which _The Hobbit_ is a prelude. **Tagyerit** makes a good point. Actually a lot of epic quest cycles seem to end with victory but the world somehow diminished–specifically by some sort of magic going out of the world. Ursula Le Guin’s Earthsea cycle for instance, or Pullman’s His Dark Materials, or Lloyd Alexander’s Prydain books ---
**Author:** ![tagyerit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@tagyerit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagyerit)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304/40 "2002-12-18T01:22:17Z")
LOTR is just so rich. Personally I would hate to dwell too long on the tragic sense of loss. If I’m not mistaken, the elves don’t die, but they do leave middle earth, which would be a loss for the hobbits, for example, but for the fact that as a race, the hobbits pretty much kept their distance. One of the things that I find of interest, is the close association that Tolkien had with CS Lewis, and the sense of beauty and growth that Lewis imparts in the end of his books Lion, Witch and Wardrobe. Well its been a long time since I’ve read that series. Yet in my memory Lewis was trying to impart this beauty as the flip side of the coin to what we always feared would be a great loss. I’m kind of thinking out loud, so I’m not sure if this makes sense? Rich [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-ending-is-a-tragedy/138304.md?page=3)