# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 111
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2201 "2010-09-05T18:46:20Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > **unvote peeker > vote Natlaw** > Looks like today’s lynch is tied on. What I want to discuss now is Nat’s motivations in trying to derail the Astral lynch. This is a good question. I’ve been thinking about the motivations but haven’t yet come to anything really conclusive. If they’re both scum, it’s a pretty hamhanded attempt to save a partner scum. If only Natlaw is scum, I have no idea why he would rescue a townie from being lynched. If Natlaw is town but Astral is scum, then a lot of questions get raised. If they’re both town, I’ll eat my hat. Basically the only two scenarios I find remotely plausible is that they’re both scum or that Natlaw is scum and Astral is town. But I find this unlikely because I see no reason for a scum natlaw to stick his neck out for a town astral. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2202 "2010-09-05T18:47:22Z")
Crap, I forgot to bleach. Sorry maha! ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2203 "2010-09-05T18:49:38Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > **@Peeker:** You asked if I know anything that would cause me to believe Natlaw. Besides him being correct? I am indeed a hobbit. Does that answer your question? \ what i was trying to get at more than anything was if there was anything in your pm or in thread posts that would caused you to believe him (i got it right) that he would know who you are other than the possibility of him being a detective? and the only reason i ask is because there were some pms as well as in game discussion that led me to believe that **ed** was in fact faramir and town. i was just kind of curious whether that mechanic could come into play more than once. kind of taking the place of masons and a town dick. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2204 "2010-09-05T18:51:41Z")
Solid argument. I was thinking we’d come to a group consensus for a solid investigation, but your way makes a ton more sense. 🙂 And plus, it’s all moot if Natlaw just made up the “searching for something” part of his post. It was a long shot, but I was hoping we could make the most of it. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2205 "2010-09-05T18:52:42Z")
NETA: That was in response to Chronos back on page 44. I hadn’t noticed we’d switched to a new page yet! ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2206 "2010-09-05T18:56:53Z")
44? Don’t be silly we’re on page 12. (You mean there are still people here that haven’t changed their posts per page to 200 yet? Hurry up, it will change your life.) ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2207 "2010-09-05T18:58:33Z")
I’ve spent this whole game thinking about it in 50 post intervals. I’m not about to go messing with my memory now! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2208 "2010-09-05T19:02:48Z")
ok, i am going to: **unvote** **vote nat** there is just no fracking way that town has two investigators. and to be honest i trust **coca cola man**. because if he doesn’t die toNight then he swings tomorrow especially if **nat** were to flip town, which i highly doubt. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2209 "2010-09-05T19:18:54Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > 1. You have a Palantir. If you use it during the Night, you may watch one other player in the game and learn whether they look like a human, hobbit, elf or dwarf. If the player is asleep you will have time to study them and learn their name. \*\*PM Mahaloth \*\*the name of the player you want to watch in the Palantir. \ time to talk metagame since this puppy may grind to a halt in a bit. i have never seen a pm that indicates the specific person you need to pm. matter of fact, compare it to **nookies**. typically they are generic, send it to the mods or the authors or some such nonsense. i can’t imagine scum **hoopy** making this kind of fake pm up or even being involved in its design. back to square one. [oog] **astral** : can i get an autograph? 🙂 good for you. woot woot.[/oog] ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2210 "2010-09-05T19:21:35Z")
I don’t see why it’s so hard to see why Natlaw would have saved Astral if Natlaw’s scum, regardless of Astral’s alignment. If Astral is scum, it’s an easy scum motivation, if the execution was a bit hamfisted. If Astral is town, well, it’s pretty apparent town is going to take out Ed as the only other candidate who has a chance of being lynched at that point (which is why peeker’s attack of OAOW is ridiculous. Ed was town. Scum get a mislynch either way. Plus, Natlaw claims a role that is weak enough that scum might not want to kill, but strong enough that town might not want to lynch. Plus, should Natlaw be killed and revealed as scum, Astral is still a likely candidate for lynch, because he was saved by scum against a known townie. The odd thing is, if Astral is town, why wouldn’t have scum have killed him in this case? A town doc is more apt to protect Natlaw over Astral, since an investigator is more useful than a town confirmation. And Astral coming up town confirms Natlaw’s save. This makes me very suspicious of Astral. As far as Nanook not coming out until now, I don’t see what’s wrong with it. Detectives shouldn’t necessarily claim when they find scum. After all, no one knew what ed was. It’s not as if taking out Natlaw would cleared Ed. And if Nanook thought Ed had a higher chance of being scum, he might not have wanted to investigate him the following Night (i.e. last Night). So Nanook coming out would have probably lost him last Night, lost us a town confirmation, and unlikely saved us from a mislynch toDay. In this case, we gain an extra townie confirmation out of the deal. Now, if Nanook had investigated Ed, it (likely) would have been worth him to come out to save Ed, but him staying quiet yesterDay was not bad strategy. And **unvote** **vote: Natlaw** ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2211 "2010-09-05T19:46:09Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > If Astral is town, well, it’s pretty apparent town is going to take out Ed as the only other candidate who has a chance of being lynched at that point (which is why peeker’s attack of OAOW is ridiculous. so switching your vote from what looks to be a scum candidate to a known non scum (at least for scum) is not a little bit, hmmm. especially when the person switching has already kind of come out and said that **ed** is town. and there is your big if: “if astral is town”. which makes no sense. and the only reason **astral** is assumed to be town is because of **nat**. last i looked we are kind of looking at a runaway. fuck, your vote is on him as well. so we can’t trust **nat**. who trusts **nat**? **oaow** , right? looks like we nabbed a whole helping mess of shrimp in this freaking conversation. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2212 "2010-09-05T19:48:57Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > > > If Astral is town, well, it’s pretty apparent town is going to take out Ed as the only other candidate who has a chance of being lynched at that point (which is why peeker’s attack of OAOW is ridiculous. > > so switching your vote from what looks to be a scum candidate to a known non scum (at least for scum) is not a little bit, hmmm. especially when the person switching has already kind of come out and said that **ed** is town. and there is your big if: “if astral is town”. which makes no sense. and the only reason **astral** is assumed to be town is because of **nat**. last i looked we are kind of looking at a runaway. fuck, your vote is on him as well. so we can’t trust **nat**. who trusts **nat**? **oaow** , right? looks like we nabbed a whole helping mess of shrimp in this freaking conversation. Sh\*t can we save Nat for tomorrow and lynch peeker today? I believed Ed was town. I also knew that he was high on a lot of people’s suspicion lists. I judged a confirmed Astral to be more valuable. As you mention Ed was only KNOWN town to scum. That would be your team I now believe. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2213 "2010-09-05T20:19:22Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > Sh\*t can we save Nat for tomorrow and lynch peeker today? > > I believed Ed was town. I also knew that he was high on a lot of people’s suspicion lists. I judged a confirmed Astral to be more valuable. > > As you mention Ed was only KNOWN town to scum. That would be your team I now believe. \ whatever. you believed **ed** to be town and your vote swung him. that’s really not an ideal play if you are town aligned, dontchaknow (have you been talking with **hoopy** - “i am wary. oh, that’s right i am not wary at all”). kind of like mafia 101. i’ve already made it clear why i believed **ed** to be truthful and was in fact my little brother. oh, noes **peeker** is right again. the fact that you chose to ignore that information makes it more your problem than mine. and **astral** is confirmed in what way? by a scummy **nat** who popped up at the last minute to save him. sorry, **wanderer** not buying a bit of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2214 "2010-09-05T20:30:17Z")
\*\*Vote Count: Peeker(1): Meeko Natlaw(7): Astral, Nanook, Chronos, Innerstickler, Oneandonly, Peeker, Hoopy\*\* ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2215 "2010-09-05T20:58:31Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > > > Sh\*t can we save Nat for tomorrow and lynch peeker today? > > > > I believed Ed was town. I also knew that he was high on a lot of people’s suspicion lists. I judged a confirmed Astral to be more valuable. > > > > As you mention Ed was only KNOWN town to scum. That would be your team I now believe. > > \ > > whatever. > > you believed **ed** to be town and your vote swung him. that’s really not an ideal play if you are town aligned, dontchaknow (have you been talking with **hoopy** - “i am wary. oh, that’s right i am not wary at all”). kind of like mafia 101. i’ve already made it clear why i believed **ed** to be truthful and was in fact my little brother. oh, noes **peeker** is right again. the fact that you chose to ignore that information makes it more your problem than mine. > > and **astral** is confirmed in what way? by a scummy **nat** who popped up at the last minute to save him. > > sorry, **wanderer** not buying a bit of it. Can I just ask what you would call an optimal play in the situation I was looking at? Just unvoting Astral changed nothing. No one else had enough votes to amke a difference just Ed. And that is kind of the point. Enough people wanted Ed lynched that he was likely to get it at some point. Astral on the other hand, If Nat was telling the truth, he was confirmed town. If not, well, Nat made an unprovoked claim right near end of day. Maybe he was hoping that it was too late and Astral’s death reveal would buy him town cred? Either that or Astral is one hell of a scum power role. Anyhoo. You are still my #2 lynch choice after Nat. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2216 "2010-09-05T21:05:37Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > The odd thing is, if Astral is town, why wouldn’t have scum have killed him in this case? A town doc is more apt to protect Natlaw over Astral, since an investigator is more useful than a town confirmation. And Astral coming up town confirms Natlaw’s save. This makes me very suspicious of Astral. Hoopy, I can’t make heads nor tails of this paragraph. It makes me think we’re watching two different games. 1. Why do you think scum would kill me over Natlaw, _if Natlaw was a legit investigator?_ 2. Why would a town doc be more apt to protect him over me, _when the doc is already dead?_ 3. Why do you think the scum would want to kill me anyway if I’m town? Natlaw knew I was vanilla. Seems to me they’d love for us to mislynch a vanilla townie, while they take out folks like Pleonast. 4. I haven’t come up anything yet. I claim I’m vanilla town. Natlaw claims I’m vanilla town. Natlaw is scum. I’m still, as far as you know, totally up in the air. You seem awfully certain I’m town based on me and Natlaw’s say-so, and Natlaw is just about as confirmed scum as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2217 "2010-09-05T21:13:57Z")
NETA: Oops, hit post before finishing my thoughts. On the other hand **Hoopy** , I agree with the gist of what you posted. > [@](#): > > I don’t see why it’s so hard to see why Natlaw would have saved Astral if Natlaw’s scum, regardless of Astral’s alignment. > > If Astral is scum, it’s an easy scum motivation, if the execution was a bit hamfisted. > > If Astral is town, well, it’s pretty apparent town is going to take out Ed as the only other candidate who has a chance of being lynched at that point (which is why peeker’s attack of OAOW is ridiculous. > > Ed was town. Scum get a mislynch either way. Plus, Natlaw claims a role that is weak enough that scum might not want to kill, but strong enough that town might not want to lynch. Plus, should Natlaw be killed and revealed as scum, Astral is still a likely candidate for lynch, because he was saved by scum against a known townie. That’s exactly what I think happened. They get town lynched either way, and by knowing my name and alignment, maybe sneak Natlaw in as a “confirmed” town power. I just think Natlaw was hoping I really would die. But with all night to talk about it, I can’t understand why his posted role wasn’t proofread. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2218 "2010-09-05T21:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The odd thing is, if Astral is town, why wouldn’t have scum have killed him in this case? A town doc is more apt to protect Natlaw over Astral, since an investigator is more useful than a town confirmation. And Astral coming up town confirms Natlaw’s save. This makes me very suspicious of Astral. They didn’t kill **Astral** because they had a better target. **Pleonast** told them he was a power role, and they may have investigated him to be sure. A roleblocker is a better target than a confirmed Town until the endgame (especially if **Natlaw** is Scum, so he’s not confirmed after all), and with the doctor dead, they didn’t have to play paper-rock-scissors with their target. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2219 "2010-09-05T21:19:46Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > Anyhoo. You are still my #2 lynch choice after Nat. \ and that’s fine. get in line behind **hoopy**. i was merely observing that your vote flipped the switch. hey, i thought **ed** was doing some things that were scum motivated. but the more i read the more i became convinced that was not the case. and when he claimed faramir and not glorifndel (or whatever the crud) i knew what he was. and because i have specifically told the mods i don’t want a ruling on this i had to go on what i knew. but that’s why i was after **astral** on whether he knew any reason that **nat** would know him. the fact that others chose to ignore this and lynch someone they thought was town seems kind of odd. i mean let’s agree to disagree on the general game state but i don’t see any other way to characterize your vote shift that doomed my little brother. and now here we are. was your vote shift a result of just kind of reacting or was it orchestrated by scum? i guess we’ll see when **nat** flips. p.s. and if it was orchestrated by scum my hats go off to you folks because that would be the ballsiest play i have ever seen in a mafia game. the only trouble is that you are kind of fucked from here on out. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2220 "2010-09-05T21:20:41Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > Night 1 I investigated Meeko, Night 2 Natlaw, and last Night Guiri. Meeko and Guiri came back with Town results, though I make no promises about the existance or not of a Godfather. Natlaw came back with a scum result. @ **Nanook** , why me? Given your result on **Natlaw** and his late claim yesterDay in defense of **Astral** , why didn’t you investigate **Astral** last Night to see if he was scum too? @ **Natlaw** , from what I’ve understood of your claimed role PM, you only learn a player’s name if they have no Night actions, why were you hesitant to share more info about **Astral** yesterDay? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=110) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=112)