# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 129
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2561 "2010-09-15T20:16:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t agree with the reasoning that Astral must be scum because that’s the only way Natlaw could have known his name. I don’t think that’s the _only_ possible explanation, but it seems to me to be overwhelmingly the most likely. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2562 "2010-09-15T20:47:40Z")
I don’t really know where you get the idea that I was using any of your previous actions to defend you, **Astral**. Read post [#2358](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12894769&postcount=2358) again. The only time I give a defense of your actions as town is in the name claim section. I was trying to show that there could be a scum motivation behind saving anyone, scum or not. But smudge me all you like. Since you bring it up, why didn’t you switch your vote back to **ed** on Day 3? You were convinced enough on Days 1 and 2 that **ed** was scum to leave your vote on him. And you voted for him early on Day 3, only changing it to **Drain** in what seems to me as an “OMGUS!” vote. **Drain** ’s WOW on you was really enough for you to toss out three days of conviction about **ed**? I’m even more convinced now that your actions were only an attempt to gain townie cred. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2563 "2010-09-15T20:48:08Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > > [@peekercpa](#): > > > > what questions do you want answered **mhaye**? i mean i will at least try. > > Will you? > > Ok then. > > In my post I asked one question outright, and discussed how you outright avoided answering a second. Try them for starters. if that is the one about “knowing” that **astral** is town i guess i phrased that poorly a bit. i believe that **astral** is town. much like i believed **ed** was town. much like i believed that **nat** was scum. much like i believe **wanderer** to be scum. if you want to give me grief for taking a stance that is one thing. if you want to fault me on my logic that is okay as well. but, please don’t take me or any other player to task for taking a position and then acting on that position. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2564 "2010-09-15T21:03:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I don’t agree with the reasoning that Astral must be scum because that’s the only way Natlaw could have known his name. > > I don’t think that’s the _only_ possible explanation, but it seems to me to be overwhelmingly the most likely. and i kind of agree and semi disagree with this statement. either scum were provided names of townies at the get go (which is obviously the position that i am advocating). or **nat** watched someone who really hasn’t claimed a power - which in games i am familiar with would just give a null result. something along the lines of you watched/tracked xxxxx last Night and they didn’t do shit. i have never seen a watcher/tracker get something back along the lines of you watched **astral** and he didn’t do shit. oh, by the way he is yyyyyy. or as **chronos** observes they are scum buddies and cooked this handshake light nonsense up. but the latter makes little sense as well. **nat** has to know that he is going to get pressured pretty durn soon on the rest of his “investigations”. and all the while there is potentially a town dick that will counter claim and he is toast. sorry folks, still sounds like a scum trying to build some town cred while we go about our business of constantly lynching townies. which, i hate to say, is a real poor strategy from a town stand point. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2565 "2010-09-15T21:29:43Z")
and **mhaye** i have already requested to be mod killed once and was denied. but if you think it wise, i will certainly try again. the only difference is that was early on in the game after catching scum out of the gate. i think now it would be imprudent for town to lose one on a technicality. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2566 "2010-09-15T21:32:34Z")
and crudinsky. the last was supposed to be addressed to **guiri** not **mhaye**. i mean didn’t **ed** kind of pull the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2567 "2010-09-15T21:49:14Z")
> [@](#): > > if that is the one about “knowing” that astral is town i guess i phrased that poorly a bit. i believe that astral is town. And yet you thought it would have been much better for us to have lynched him instead of **ed**. If you think that they were both Town, why would it have made any difference which one we lynched? Yeah, yeah, you’re about to say “if we had lynched **Astral** we wouldn’t have these questions about him any more”, but in that case, we’d have still had questions about **ed**. That objection can be raised against any lynch whatsoever. > [@](#): > > and i kind of agree and semi disagree with this statement. either scum were provided names of townies at the get go (which is obviously the position that i am advocating). So you really think that **Mahaloth** started the game and then said to Scum, “Oh, by the way, **Astral** is Merry”. Why on Middle-Earth would that be part of the game setup? > [@](#): > > but the latter makes little sense as well. nat has to know that he is going to get pressured pretty durn soon on the rest of his “investigations”. and all the while there is potentially a town dick that will counter claim and he is toast. Or possibly, **Natlaw** just screwed up royally. No, wait, that’s not “possibly”; we know for a fact that he did in fact screw up royally. Given that we already know that he botched his claim, what’s so hard to believe about him botching it just a bit more? ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2568 "2010-09-15T21:53:56Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@MHaye](#): > > > > In my post I asked one question outright, and discussed how you outright avoided answering a second. Try them for starters. > > if that is the one about “knowing” that **astral** is town i guess i phrased that poorly a bit. i believe that **astral** is town. much like i believed **ed** was town. much like i believed that **nat** was scum. much like i believe **wanderer** to be scum. > > if you want to give me grief for taking a stance that is one thing. if you want to fault me on my logic that is okay as well. but, please don’t take me or any other player to task for taking a position and then acting on that position. That’s something. It answers the question “How did you know Astral was Town?” with a feasible explanation; I know I’ve done things like that. The trouble _is_, your argument here (“please don’t take me or any other player to task for taking a position and then acting on that position,”) is just what you have done. OAOW took the position that less damage was done to Town by lynching Ed than by lynching Astral, and acted on it. You’ve been on his case about it ever since. And you haven’t touched the question I berated you for not answering. Please address it forthwith. Is it reasonable for a vanilla Townie in this game, with no more information than that contained in his role PM (with its emphasis on the dire threat Sauron and his minions pose to family and loved ones) and the in-thread events, to conclude that his own sister was also in the Alliance of Light? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2569 "2010-09-15T22:02:50Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > I don’t really know where you get the idea that I was using any of your previous actions to defend you, **Astral**. Read post [#2358](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12894769&postcount=2358) again. The only time I give a defense of your actions as town is in the name claim section. I was trying to show that there could be a scum motivation behind saving anyone, scum or not. But smudge me all you like. > > Since you bring it up, why didn’t you switch your vote back to **ed** on Day 3? You were convinced enough on Days 1 and 2 that **ed** was scum to leave your vote on him. And you voted for him early on Day 3, only changing it to **Drain** in what seems to me as an “OMGUS!” vote. **Drain** ’s WOW on you was really enough for you to toss out three days of conviction about **ed**? > > I’m even more convinced now that your actions were only an attempt to gain townie cred. **Snickers** , you’re looking at the wrong post. I am of course referring to this: > [@Snickers](#): > > I was wondering if you’d bring this up. I think it’s pretty easy to find scum motivation behind switching your vote off ed - you could attempt to use it later to gain townie cred. As you’ve now done. > > Your post has changed my mind. I’m now more inclined to believe that you are a high-value scum than a simple VT innocently involved in scum plans. > > **Vote Astral.** You changed your mind. Because I brought up something you were using to judge me as town with. In simpler terms, you thought I was town because I unvoted Ed, until I brought up the fact that I unvoted Ed. Pretty much exactly what my “smudge” accused you of. I guess it’s convenient for you to pretend otherwise. For town’s benefit, here’s the “smudge” I wrote that Snickers is referring to: > [@](#): > > Snickers thinks I’m scum because I brought up something he was waiting for me to bring up. I’m not sure how “defending myself by pointing at past actions” makes me more scummy, when he was already using those actions to consider me town. It’s the kind of ass-backwards “gotcha!” move to justify a vote that I would expect scum to use. I want you guys to look very, very closely at him tomorrow after I swing. As to your question, I unvoted Ed and voted Drain Bead because I considered him more scummy than Ed _at that time._ Ed was my target for day 1. He was my target for Day 2. Because, up to that point, I considered him the most scummy target. But - surprise, surprise! - as facts changed, so did my vote. Drain Bead directly attacked me in factually inaccurate ways. So I voted for him. Here’s what I don’t get. You’re advising me to act in ways that are completely anti-town. As a vanilla town, my greatest power is my lynch vote. I _have_ to vote for who I find scummiest. My death is USELESS to town if I don’t make cases and try to uncover scum. At that moment, I considered Drain Bead’s attack on me to be a scum-motivated attempt to gain town credit. I’d been garnering votes each day, so I’m a “safe” target to do a biased WoW of my words. I believed he was hoping to do his write-up (cleverly leaving off links) and get a bunch of folks to say “hey, I agree.” Instant town cred, and when I flip town, he can safely hide in the crowd. People remember his “honest” attempt to uncover my scummy postings, and forget that he was **wrong** , since they were voting for me too. So, as town, it’s my job to point that out. I was going to die, there’s no way around it. But I was absolutely going to point out how scummy his actions looked, so that when I flipped, you guys could take a look in his direction. A counter-question: why do you think I should have kept voting for Ed? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2570 "2010-09-15T22:15:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So you really think that **Mahaloth** started the game and then said to Scum, “Oh, by the way, **Astral** is Merry”. Why on Middle-Earth would that be part of the game setup? It doesn’t matter too much in the greater scheme of things, but I’m Pippin, not Merry. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2571 "2010-09-15T22:25:56Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > > [@peekercpa](#): > > > > if that is the one about “knowing” that **astral** is town i guess i phrased that poorly a bit. i believe that **astral** is town. much like i believed **ed** was town. much like i believed that **nat** was scum. much like i believe **wanderer** to be scum. > > > > if you want to give me grief for taking a stance that is one thing. if you want to fault me on my logic that is okay as well. but, please don’t take me or any other player to task for taking a position and then acting on that position. > > That’s something. It answers the question “How did you know Astral was Town?” with a feasible explanation; I know I’ve done things like that. The trouble _is_, your argument here (“please don’t take me or any other player to task for taking a position and then acting on that position,”) is just what you have done. OAOW took the position that less damage was done to Town by lynching Ed than by lynching Astral, and acted on it. You’ve been on his case about it ever since. > > And you haven’t touched the question I berated you for not answering. Please address it forthwith. > > Is it reasonable for a vanilla Townie in this game, with no more information than that contained in his role PM (with its emphasis on the dire threat Sauron and his minions pose to family and loved ones) and the in-thread events, to conclude that his own sister was also in the Alliance of Light? Yes or no? ok, i’ll try again. and you know you are right i am taking **wanderer** to task for his position. if he would have had any other position than “man, i think **ed** is town but i am voting for him anyways” i would feel markedly different. i guess i just don’t get voting for folks you think are town. but apparantly, meh. and based on in thread information (and i assume we are talking **chronos** here) maybe so maybe no. **nat** had information about a player, right? and got a game name. i have never seen that mechanic with a watcher/tracker. typically the reveal is more along the lines of “the person you investigated did blah blah blah”. so the fact that **nat** claimed to have a name and an alignment just doesn’t make sense based on the death reveal. the fact that **astral** has confirmed at least the name part makes me go, hmmm. **nat** was scum by the way. now **chronos** pipes in on Day 1 and let’s us know that aragorn (woot woot) is in the game. aragorn promptly ends up dead on Night 2 and **chronos** basically chimes in with: “yep, knew it” (based on my recollection) after losing our doc on Night 1. that doesn’t make you slightly suspicious? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2572 "2010-09-15T22:41:47Z")
> [@](#): > > and based on in thread information (and i assume we are talking chronos here) maybe so maybe no. nat had information about a player, right? and got a game name. i have never seen that mechanic with a watcher/tracker. typically the reveal is more along the lines of “the person you investigated did blah blah blah”. so the fact that nat claimed to have a name and an alignment just doesn’t make sense based on the death reveal. the fact that astral has confirmed at least the name part makes me go, hmmm. nat was scum by the way. Yes, that’s the part that seems to make sense to everyone in the game but you (and **Astral** , of course). It made me go, hmmm, too. As in, hmmm, that probably means **Astral** is Scum. > [@](#): > > now chronos pipes in on Day 1 and let’s us know that aragorn (woot woot) is in the game. aragorn promptly ends up dead on Night 2 and chronos basically chimes in with: “yep, knew it” (based on my recollection) after losing our doc on Night 1. I didn’t just chime in with “yep, knew it”; I proved that I did in fact know it (not just that Aragorn was in the game, but who he was, and I knew it during Day 1). And sorry about the name mix-up, **Astral** , there’s not really much, in practical terms, to distinguish the two: They were “the other two hobbits”. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2573 "2010-09-15T22:51:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I didn’t just chime in with “yep, knew it”; I proved that I did in fact know it (not just that Aragorn was in the game, but who he was, and I knew it during Day 1). \ well that was kind of a crappy town play then, right? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2574 "2010-09-15T22:55:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, that’s the part that seems to make sense to everyone in the game but you (and **Astral** , of course). It makes sense to me. I just disagree, mostly because I’m town. Your vote is well-reasoned, even if (as you’ll see) it’s wrong. > [@](#): > > And sorry about the name mix-up, **Astral** , there’s not really much, in practical terms, to distinguish the two: They were “the other two hobbits”. No worries. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2575 "2010-09-15T23:11:18Z")
> [@](#): > > well that was kind of a crappy town play then, right? What was a crappy town play? I’m not seeing it. My knowing that **Gadarene** was Aragorn? That wasn’t my play; that was part of **Mahaloth** ’s setup. My proving that I knew? That provided good evidence that I’m Town, which is something that a Townie should, in general, try to do if possible. Revealing that I knew anything at all in the first place? I’ve already acknowledged that that was a mistake, but in retrospect it doesn’t really seem to have hurt Town much. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2576 "2010-09-16T00:11:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > well that was kind of a crappy town play then, right? > > What was a crappy town play? I’m not seeing it. My knowing that **Gadarene** was Aragorn? That wasn’t my play; that was part of **Mahaloth** ’s setup. My proving that I knew? That provided good evidence that I’m Town, which is something that a Townie should, in general, try to do if possible. Revealing that I knew anything at all in the first place? I’ve already acknowledged that that was a mistake, but in retrospect it doesn’t really seem to have hurt Town much. uh, sorry **chronos**. you knowing who arargorn was makes you as confirmed as **nat**. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2577 "2010-09-16T00:15:56Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > I think **Peeker** ’s the scummiest right now. All the weird stuff with the imaginary PMs \*, the imaginary masonry, his votes on **OaOW** for acting based on a cop claim, on **Chronos** for no apparent reason, his unwillingness to explain his unvote of **Chronos** , his vote on **cucuy** for being anti-town while pretending to be sure he’s found x scum, his apparent knowledge of **Astral** ’s alignment and his attempt at fabricating a case against **Chronos** based on a completely different and unknown precedent. > > Vote peekercpa > > - There may well be actual PMs but if **Mahaloth** had accidentally provided **Peeker** with game-breaking information, I’m confident that he would have been mod-killed. I have no idea what other kind of information **Peeker** may have received but he’s doing a terrible job of “not mentioning it “in thread”” as explicitly requested by the Mod and he’s apparently trying to use the post restriction to his advantage . \*\*Guiri \*\*: What do you think about the parchment? What do you think about the other posibillities for “” potatoes “” ? Wouldn’t a potato ease some of the things you are charging on Peeker? **But then again, I guess that is the issue with Potatoes. Potatoes force players to prove a negative.** – It can’t be done. **Peeker** : What PMs did you send to Mahaloth? – And in a moment of "crossing the beams " **Peeker : What would happen to you if you violate your post restriction, or share privileged information? \*\* \*\* Town :** How common is it for a player to have a post restriction AND information that cannot be shared? [[Assuming that a post restriction is more trivial and general nature, and that being forbidden to say something relates to one specific thing.]] In my mind, they are arguably on the same spectrum, but as far from each other as the east is to the west. To the point that I am more comfortable saying they are separate things than not. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2578 "2010-09-16T00:49:35Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > **Peeker** : What PMs did you send to Mahaloth? > > – And in a moment of "crossing the beams " > > \*\ ***Peeker :** What would happen to you if you violate your post restriction, or share privileged information? \*\* > . \ i have sent him several. there, as near as i can tell, will be no sanctions. but in the spirit of the game i will go no further. and that’s what led me to believe that **ed** was town. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2579 "2010-09-16T00:57:46Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > i have sent him several. > > there, as near as i can tell, will be no sanctions. but in the spirit of the game i will go no further. and that’s what led me to believe that **ed** was town. **Unvote Astral** **Vote Peeker** You are still dodging? DODGE THIS /Trinity ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2580 "2010-09-16T00:59:52Z")
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