# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 131
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2601 "2010-09-16T04:27:19Z")
Come on. I don’t know if Peeker is town or not. Voting for him is pretty useless if we’re both town. Regardless, assuming that we’re both town, if either of us are lynched, town gets plenty of information. My death shows us who has been riding me all game. Peeker’s death does… something. But here’s the thing… I’m feeling about 50/50 about Peeker right now. I was a sure lynch at the start of the day. All he had to do was shut up for **one Day** and scum would net themselves another lovely town mislynch. Only Natlaw was a surer thing. So, I have trouble attributing his obfuscation to scum tactics. I wanted to reread him before (possibly) sending him to his grave. I’m sorry that _explaining my reasoning_ and _not voting for someone I think might reasonably be town_ is a scum tell in your book. My death HAS to benefit town, or it’s a waste. I’m still convinced that considering the game carefully and laying out my thoughts is more important than the life or death of a vanilla townie such as myself. I also believe I’ve been consistent on this point throughout the game. If you’ve gotta vote for me, then do it. But don’t act like _not saving myself_ is a scum tell. I’m just playing the game the way I choose to play it, same as everybody else. If you hadn’t voted me for waiting on Peeker, somebody else woulda voted for me for jumping at the chance to save myself. The difference is that I’m choosing to be pragmatic and pro-town about it. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2602 "2010-09-16T04:33:38Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > See Astral, you say things like that and that’s part of the reason people think you’re scum. > > Let’s assume for a second that you are in fact Town. I don’t believe this, but let’s go with it for a moment. You do not, and in fact cannot, know that peeker is Town. However, you DO know that you yourself are Town. Therefore a defensive vote, from your standpoint, is a positive thing. You are definately contributing to the saving of a Town player. > > That said, once again I think you are scum. And as such, don’t feel like giving you that chance. > > unvote peeker > vote Astral \*\* Is you scum-mate peeker getting a tad too much heat here Nanook?\*\* **Nanook,** if this isn’t an example of a scum making a vote switch, please give me an example of what is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2603 "2010-09-16T04:38:21Z")
**Meeko** , let’s lay off on accusations of that sort at least until toMorrow. If it turns out that **Astral** is Town and **peeker** is Scum, then that vote would look very Scummy (at least taken in isolation; I still can’t see that a Scum **Nanook** wouldn’t have been counterclaimed). If one of those two turns out to be true and we don’t know the other, then it’ll look a little Scummy. But if it turns out that **Astral** is Scum, or that **peeker** isn’t, then it doesn’t look Scummy at all. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2604 "2010-09-16T05:05:25Z")
Ok… Second time Astral’s set to swing. Second time there’s a late push against it. My antennae are twitching. Let’s not forget Astral was saved before at the bell by known scum! Astral - sorry if you’re town (though I obviously don’t think so) but you’ve got to swing. We need the info. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2605 "2010-09-16T05:06:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Meeko** , let’s lay off on accusations of that sort at least until toMorrow. Yeah, I mean, I don’t think Im gonna change votes here myself, after calling someone else on it. I just feel that most Mafia games are lost because of vote changes. Further, I feel that we need to get this vote right. Not gonna change my vote, but I want to indeed look at this if we need to later, and not have it pass by. I mean, regardless of alignment, the vote FROM peeker is a bit against the current. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2606 "2010-09-16T05:13:54Z")
> [@Doctor\_Who](#): > > Ok… Second time Astral’s set to swing. Second time there’s a late push against it. My antennae are twitching. Let’s not forget Astral was saved before at the bell by known scum! > > Astral - sorry if you’re town (though I obviously don’t think so)\*\* but you’ve got to swing\*\*. We need the info. Wow. Run the bolded by me again? Didn’t Nat death reveal to have the planter’s peanuts? er uh, a plantir? What is the likelihood Nat reported a true finding with the plantir? How does town cred fit in to that? Certainly the fact that a plantir gives limited information weighs in on this. WIFOM : **How much truth would a scum put into a statement?** Is that amount changed if he knew he was going to gamble and fabricate a role pm? Does he hedge his bets? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2607 "2010-09-16T05:32:43Z")
Meeko - I’m going to admit to being a little confused by the totality of your post. But I will try to address the part I understood: you want to know WHY I think Astral needs to be lynched today? Correct me if I’m wrong… Here’s the reason. Astral was set to swing on Day Whatever (posting from my phone - can’t check back and be more precise right now). Nat came through with phony investigative results to save him. After Nat was lynched, there was plenty of discussion about why he would have stuck his neck sooo far out to save Astral. He basically got himself killed saving Astral. I think it’s been one of the great mysteries of this game… Why? Tons of WIFOM. Basically, we do not have the information right now to determine Nat’s motives. Lynching Astral gives us more information. If he flips town, well… Then how in the hell did Nat know his role name (given that he was revealed to be a scum watcher). Is there another scum investigative role or some other game mechanic that we don’t know about? As I said earlier, I have my doubts about peeker especially given his Boromir role name claim. But I am super suspicious of the timing of this last minute push towards lynching him (and therefore not lynching Astral AGAIN… Saving him at the last minute AGAIN). I think our Town gets more information and is much better served by an Astral lynch. And it’s even sweeter because I believe he’s scum. Super scum possibly. Questions? ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2608 "2010-09-16T06:36:34Z")
It’s the last minute thing yesterday that throws me. The likelihood yesterday was that Nat’s reveal was too late and Astral was gonna swing anyway. This would have led to a Nat lynching straight away. 2 scum dead instead of one (If Astral is indeed scum) If however Astral swung and revealed town, well, Nat was on the way to being a confirmed investigator. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2609 "2010-09-16T06:39:46Z")
Sure, but as it is, it still led to a Nat lynching straight away. I think the simplest explanation is just that Nat screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2610 "2010-09-16T10:31:02Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > If however Astral swung and revealed town, well, Nat was on the way to being a confirmed investigator. Except he was bound to be counter-claimed soon after. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2611 "2010-09-16T12:33:29Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > > [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > > > If however Astral swung and revealed town, well, Nat was on the way to being a confirmed investigator. > > Except he was bound to be counter-claimed soon after. so what if he was? He never claimed full Inv. Assuming his claim was essentially correct apart from alignment, he was just a variant watcher, who got extra info (char name) if the watchee performed no action. Why would an inv counter that? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2612 "2010-09-16T13:34:25Z")
> [@Astral Rejection](#): > > You changed your mind. Because I brought up something you were using to judge me as town with. In simpler terms, you thought I was town because I unvoted Ed, until I brought up the fact that I unvoted Ed. Pretty much exactly what my “smudge” accused you of. I guess it’s convenient for you to pretend otherwise. I think we’re talking past each other here. I’ve never thought you were town. I’ve always been unsure whether you were town or whether you were scum. I certainly didn’t think you were town because you unvoted **ed**. Instead, thinking about **Natlaw** ’s save, I thought that it was possible that you could be an innocent townie caught up in scum’s nefarious plans, through no fault or actions of your own, or that you could be scum directly involved in those plans. As I thought about the second scenario, I thought about what scum motivation might be behind your vote switches and whether you’d bring it up later in an “I’m so innocent, look, I unvoted **ed**!” deal. Then that was exactly what you did, and it fit with what I’d built in my head. It’s these later actions, along with the fact that **Natlaw** knew your name (I can’t think of how he knew this if you’re town), that cemented your status in my mind as scum, not any previous voting or unvoting. I don’t know what you should’ve done with your vote. I don’t know what anyone should do with their votes, except vote for who they think is scum. I understand your reasoning for moving your vote off **ed**. I can also see how it’s part of a ploy to gain you cred. Unfortunately for you, I find this second explanation more compelling. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2613 "2010-09-16T13:39:02Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > …along with the fact that **Natlaw** knew your name (I can’t think of how he knew this if you’re town), that cemented your status in my mind as scum, not any previous voting or unvoting… There are a couple of ways this could be with Astral still being town 1. Scum have an investigator who had targeted Astral and shared results with team scum 2. If Nat’s role powers were essentially as stated, then he got char name if his target for watching performed no actions. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2614 "2010-09-16T13:47:42Z")
Would scum use both an investigator and a tracker on the same target (even if it is on different nights)? I can see that, I guess, but it seems an unlikely duplication of efforts. Is that common for a tracker, to get the role name if his target has no night actions? Or is it just a new wrinkle that **Mahaloth** tossed in there (maybe for balance)? ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2615 "2010-09-16T13:49:22Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > Would scum use both an investigator and a tracker on the same target (even if it is on different nights)? I can see that, I guess, but it seems an unlikely duplication of efforts. > > Is that common for a tracker, to get the role name if his target has no night actions? Or is it just a new wrinkle that **Mahaloth** tossed in there (maybe for balance)? standard tracker doesn’t work this way. But i’m not ruling out the possibility of a variant form being in this game. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2616 "2010-09-16T13:49:59Z")
Wait, I see. **Natlaw** would’ve been sharing the investigator’s results, not his own. Yeah, I’m slow. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2617 "2010-09-16T13:52:21Z")
Even if Astral is Scum, that doesn’t give Peeker a pass for all the crap he is doing. If Peeker is town, you think he wouldn’t continue dodging everything. I still do not see why he doesn’t come clean with EVERYTHING. I mean, if not RIGHT NOW, then when? Peeker is tying a hand behind his back, and we are well into his time to “rope a dope”. He’s just retying the same rope. \*\*TOWN doesn’t do that. \*\* – Nat had a Plantir. **He could very well have gotten a true result on Astral and reported it.** This supports his gambit to get Credit as Town. The fail was on making the claim – not on the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2618 "2010-09-16T13:55:49Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > Wait, I see. **Natlaw** would’ve been sharing the investigator’s results, not his own. Yeah, I’m slow. Doesn’t answer the question as to if what he passed on was truthful or not. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2619 "2010-09-16T13:57:04Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > Wait, I see. **Natlaw** would’ve been sharing the investigator’s results, not his own. Yeah, I’m slow. \*\*Wait. What? IIRC Nat had the Plantir. Where does the game of " telephone " come in? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/2620 "2010-09-16T14:00:27Z")
\*\*Astral is more or less Guilty by Association. What they have ““done”” is only brought forth because of Nat. [Then again, what did Astral do again?] Peeker is Digging to china, on his own accord. Do we not hold players to their own actions in this game? \*\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=130) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=132)