# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/381 "2010-08-13T18:07:49Z")
NETA yet again: Post #380 was meant in response to **Hoopy** , of course. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/382 "2010-08-13T18:10:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > First off, I think that, in my initial discussion with **special ed** , I inadvertently gave out enough information for Scum to deduce that I’m nonvanilla. Since that cat’s out of the bag anyway, I might as well tell more. So far as I can tell, my power consists entirely of the fact that I started the game with a particular piece of information. I do not believe that it would be in Town’s best interest to make this piece of information public at this time, but I will want to be able to prove later that I had this piece of information on Day 1 (i.e., before any Night powers could have been used). So what I’m going to do is take an [md5 hash](http://www.miraclesalad.com/webtools/md5.php) of my information. The message hash, as returned by that website, is > 093220ee6df5628413c40e71e086d5f0 > When it becomes appropriate for me to reveal the information publicly, I’ll post the exact string I used to get that hash, and everyone can confirm that it agrees. The fact that I had this information at the start of the game will, I think, be evidence (though not proof) of my Towniness. Just make sure that if you are town and it is remotely useful for us to know at some point, you reveal it before you die. Otherwise, it’s kind of pointless you soft-claiming like this. After all, whether scum think you’re a power role and kill you, or know you’re a power-role with information that the town doesn’t know and kill you, a town power role with information winds up dead, and we lose whatever it was you had. I don’t really understand why you felt the need to confirm any suspicions that might be out there, without actually giving town anything in return. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/383 "2010-08-13T18:14:41Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Quick lurker review (and I recognize that the interminable Night Zero makes it hard for me to put into perspective the fact that we’ve only barely begun Day One): > > By my count and skim of the thread, so far there are two players we haven’t heard anything from, **Drain Bead** and **Cucuy**. > > **MHaye** has only posted once, but he did say in that post (#155) that he wouldn’t be able to post for a couple of days due to RL stuff. We’ve also had only one post from **Astral Rejection** (#312). > > A few other posters ( **Natlaw** , **Little Plastic Ninja** , **USCDiver** , **Chipacabra** , **Oredigger** , and **Nanook** ) have posted a handful of times with varying levels of substantivity. > > I don’t know if substantivity is a word. > > The rest of us have been yakking incessantly. Substantivity is a word. And can be used in the way you used it. (Usually it applies to how long the smell of a volatile substance, like perfume, will last.) However, for the usage you’re choosing, “substance” is a more elegant choice. And don’t judge anything by Nanook’s (in)frequency of posting. He’s a man of little words, though those words usually convey great information. He always plays that way regardless of alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/384 "2010-08-13T18:17:38Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > After all, whether scum think you’re a power role and kill you, or know you’re a power-role with information that the town doesn’t know and kill you, a town power role with information winds up dead, and we lose whatever it was you had. I don’t really understand why you felt the need to confirm any suspicions that might be out there, without actually giving town anything in return. > > 😕 Okay, one last post: How is your argument about **Chronos’s** claim here not appreciably identical to my argument about **Pleo’s** claim? (With the exception that **Chronos’s** claim is, at least potentially, retrospectively verifiable?) ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/385 "2010-08-13T18:26:17Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > > [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > > > I think that was more of a request to move the end of Day up. Which I kinda agree with, too long a Day saps interest in the game. > > Yes, it was a plea to shorten the length of this day. Which may simply be selfish on my part, but I fear I will go batshit crazy if I have to read another week’s worth of conversation about handshakes etc. > > Now if we manage to come up with something useful to talk about, that’s another story. I just feel like at this stage in the game we don’t have anything to go on. There’s no voting record, no roles have been exposed, we have no way of knowing anything with a reasonable amount of certainty. I’d just like to get things moving along. > > Of course, I may be alone in these feelings, and if so that sucks for me… Almost all talking is good talking. There’s a big gray area between what is futile discussion and not. A good rule of thumb is that once the debates and information become endlessly repeated, it’s probably best to move on. You might not think the handshaking is relevant anymore, and you may even be right, but as long as new information keeps flowing, there’s no reason to really curtail it. I didn’t think it’d be that useful from the start, but I participated in it anyway, because there were things to bring to the table, even if they would be useless in the end. But asking people to move on when the full repercussions haven’t been explored to everyone’s satisfaction can reflect bad on you. (The whole stifling discussion thing, which will rear it’s head in pretty much every game.) Welcome to mafia. Usually if you get sick of a subject, the best tack to take rather than complaining about it is to just steer the conversation another direction. It shows that you are actually making an effort to play the game rather than complaining. And you did do so. Though I have to say that Ed being involved in controversy is a null tell for him. I don’t think he can avoid it, regardless of alignment. But, the fact that he started the handshake means to me that either Scum definitely have a cover PM, or that he is town. Not a whole lot at this point, but it’s something. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/386 "2010-08-13T18:27:17Z")
NETA: By “you did do so” I mean that you changed the discussion subject by giving your analysis, not that you were complaining. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/387 "2010-08-13T18:34:00Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > > [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > > > After all, whether scum think you’re a power role and kill you, or know you’re a power-role with information that the town doesn’t know and kill you, a town power role with information winds up dead, and we lose whatever it was you had. I don’t really understand why you felt the need to confirm any suspicions that might be out there, without actually giving town anything in return. > > > > 😕 > > Okay, one last post: How is your argument about **Chronos’s** claim here not appreciably identical to my argument about **Pleo’s** claim? (With the exception that **Chronos’s** claim is, at least potentially, retrospectively verifiable?) Because Pleo does this in just about all, if not all, games. If it were just this one, we’d have the same scenario as Chronos. But we don’t. We have Pleo playing like Pleo, and Chronos playing with a legitimate soft claim. (Regardless of the truthfulness of the claim itself.) People say you shouldn’t metagame Mafia, but I disagree. The Meta is just as much part of the game your playing in as the actual setup is. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/388 "2010-08-13T18:40:35Z")
Just to provide some idea of my thinking. I hate meta. This game is designed by x and they wouldn’t do y. Hate it. If a mod wants to stop this kind of handshake, my preference is for the vanilla town post to be included in the rules. I don’t mind thematic stuff at all (within reason) but the game should be playable with only the rules as stated. Players who have never played under a mod before should not be at a disadvantage from not knowing their design preferences! Now, hands up if you’re an Orc. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/389 "2010-08-13T18:45:39Z")
I haven’t been chiming in much because, while I find the handshaking conversation interesting, I don’t have all that much to say about it that hasn’t already been said. FWIW, I think Special Ed is right about the value of finding vanilla town. Even if it hands the power roles to the scum on a platter, that just locates the scum by elimination. Big win. I suspect that at least some of the inconsistencies in the handshaking is just from unclear definitions. Chronos: I just woke up, and my brain isn’t up to speed, but I’m having trouble imagining what sort of information would be worth keeping from the townies, especially since you’ve rather marked yourself for a nightkill if you’re telling the truth. Oh, may as well include a handshake. My win condition sentence, the sentence beginning with “You win” includes three instances of double letters. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/390 "2010-08-13T18:49:22Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > Oh, may as well include a handshake. My win condition sentence, the sentence beginning with “You win” includes three instances of double letters. Unless those letters _aren’t_ “ll”, “ll”, and “ee”, I think this is something that’s already been well-established. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/391 "2010-08-13T19:16:22Z")
Hurr, right. Like I said, just got up. Heh. OK, trying something less stupid: Double letters in the paragraph immediately BEFORE the heading “Powers:” = five. Has that already been covered? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/392 "2010-08-13T19:28:21Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > Hurr, right. Like I said, just got up. Heh. > OK, trying something less stupid: Double letters in the paragraph immediately BEFORE the heading “Powers:” = five. Has that already been covered? I don’t think it’s been covered, and I don’t know how helpful it will be (since it does seem like there are several variations of the flavor text floating around out there), but I’ll confirm five double letter sets in that paragraph/section. ll, ll, \_\_\_, oo, and dd. (I’ll leave it to someone else to fill in the fifth one if they want, Chip, or I can supply it if you feel that would be helpful.) ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/393 "2010-08-13T19:32:14Z")
@Chronos, Just to be clear I misread ed’s handshake and posted my portion before I confirmed his. My handshake was based solely on the wincondition, not on the full last section. so take that what it’s worth i guess. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/394 "2010-08-13T19:36:48Z")
I’ve been sick and trying to get a house ready to go on the market on Monday, so my participation may be drastically low for the first half of this Day. My apologies. By Monday I’ll be back to normal, I hope. As far as the whole handshaking thing, my PM has the word “Sauron” in it three times, and the last sentence has 2 W’s, 2 Y’s, and 2 D’s. I’m still a touch concerned that all this is doing is handing power roles to the Scum, but if **ed** is right, this info could be very helpful to us. I’m willing to take that gamble at the moment. Also, with the double letters thing, I’m getting LL, LL, LL, OO, DD, and EE. I think you guys may have overlooked a LL in there, so check again. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/395 "2010-08-13T19:38:28Z")
Of course, whether you’re missing or not counting another LL depends on what you consider the section before powers. I was counting everything that came after my role name. If you were not, then your count is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/396 "2010-08-13T19:48:06Z")
By my definition, each paragraph is separated by line breaks. Your post 394 has 4 paragraphs. I believe, without evidence backing it up, that the paragraph I used should be identical for at least all vanilla town, maybe all town. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/397 "2010-08-13T19:48:23Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Also, with the double letters thing, I’m getting LL, LL, LL, OO, DD, and EE. I think you guys may have overlooked a LL in there, so check again. I didn’t overlook the LL, but I did miss the EE. Hyphens are tricky! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/398 "2010-08-13T19:48:52Z")
My information would probably help Town in the midgame, help Scum in the early game, and is little enough that if I die, my taking the information to the grave would not particularly cripple the Town. It occurs to me, though, that even if I die unexpectedly, it’s still possible to prevent the information from being lost. What I could do (but won’t just yet, without some more discussion of pros and cons; we have plenty of time left in the Day) is to use my role-name as a key to encode my information (and then, of course, keep my role name secret until I’m ready to tell all). That way, when and if I die unexpectedly, you all could use my revealed name to decrypt the information, and it wouldn’t be lost. The two biggest drawbacks that I can see are that, first, if I’m killed early enough, that might get the information out sooner than optimal, and second, that there is a small enough set of potential role names that it would be feasible for an attacker to just try potential names until they found one that decrypted to something intelligible, thus defeating the encryption (this is why proper one-time pads should be random). Of course, if I die from lynching rather than from Night-kill, then I’ll be able to see it coming, and decide at that time whether I want to just say it clearly or not. And does anyone have any thoughts on **USCDiver** matching all of the handshakes, or are we waiting for him to weigh in on it first? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/399 "2010-08-13T19:50:36Z")
NETA: I was also counting everything that came after my role name. Which would be multiple “paragraphs,” by **Chip’s** reckoning, so that’s further evidence that the paragraphs aren’t necessarily identical – or at least formatted identically – after all. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/400 "2010-08-13T19:53:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And does anyone have any thoughts on **USCDiver** matching all of the handshakes, or are we waiting for him to weigh in on it first? I’d like to hear him weigh in on it. It might just be a matter of interpretation, but I certainly don’t see how he could match all of the handshakes up to that point, if several of them were inconsistent and/or mutually exclusive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=21)