# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/421 "2010-08-13T21:06:52Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > I see the same issue, **Guiri** , and it worries me a fair amount. > > > > On another note, would it be worthwhile at this point to discuss the possibility/likelihood of a third-party role with a wincon tied to a particular, um, precious object – oh, let’s say a ring – and the potential implications of that role (and the existence of that object) on the game mechanics? > > The ring was a focal point of the stories, but I can’t guess what it would mean in the game. Maybe prevents a player from being targetted, but reaveals something to Sauron? > > I know maha likes potatoes to pass around, and there was another one (or more) that might also exist: the palantir. I guess it’s at this point that I cheerfully admit having only a passing knowledge with the canon. 🙂 Never read the books, seen only two of the movies, and am fairly unfamiliar with all but the most central people, places, and things of the LOTR universe (besides potatoes! boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew), and most of those I’ve gleaned from reading past threads on this here board. No Silmarillion scholar I. I’ll try to keep up, though, goshdurnit. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/422 "2010-08-13T21:08:48Z")
The ring was also a corrupting influence in the books. The Nazgul were former ring owners. Up above somewhere, somebody brought up the possibility of recruitment. I’d say there’s definitely a canonical precedent for it. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/423 "2010-08-13T21:09:48Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > If **Chronos** could tell us what “slip” he thought he made, that would be helpful, but since (if he’s telling the truth) he probably assumes that it’s something that would also help identify other nonvanillas, discussing it in any detail is probably too risky. He already told us. The relevant culmination of the whole issue is here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12793096&postcount=152](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12793096&postcount=152) Personally, until that point, I thought nothing of it on either side. Mainly because whether a section clearly says “Win Condition” or not, it’s pretty apparent which part of your PM is your win condition section. People were needlessly picking nits where none needed to be picked. I wrote it off as a misunderstanding in semantics between the two of them. But then Chronos actually came out to indicate that there was indeed a difference between his and Ed’s, effectively saying that Ed is probably vanilla, and claiming that he is a power role. It was a needless claim. Possibly a goof, but possibly not. I don’t see how anyone else’s reactions to the whole thing indicate power role status one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/424 "2010-08-13T21:10:38Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > I see the same issue, **Guiri** , and it worries me a fair amount. > > On another note, would it be worthwhile at this point to discuss the possibility/likelihood of a third-party role with a wincon tied to a particular, um, precious object – oh, let’s say a ring – and the potential implications of that role (and the existence of that object) on the game mechanics? major fucking cool. now we can have a potential pis discussion. sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/425 "2010-08-13T21:22:05Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > I see the same issue, **Guiri** , and it worries me a fair amount. > > > > On another note, would it be worthwhile at this point to discuss the possibility/likelihood of a third-party role with a wincon tied to a particular, um, precious object – oh, let’s say a ring – and the potential implications of that role (and the existence of that object) on the game mechanics? > > major fucking cool. now we can have a potential pis discussion. > > sheesh. Is it PIS to speculate that, of the characters from the books, one of the roles in this game is Gollum, when Gollum is (1) a central character in the books and (2) perfectly suited to be a third-party role in this game? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/426 "2010-08-13T21:23:46Z")
NETA: and I guess substitute “is likely to be Gollum” or “is potentially Gollum” for “is Gollum,” since obviously I didn’t design the game and can’t say for sure. All I know is that if I were designing a LOTR Mafia game, Gollum would be one of the roles. And if he is a role, I think it possibly changes the game dynamic in a way that might be productive for the town to discuss at the outset. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/427 "2010-08-13T21:24:09Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > I think that was more of a request to move the end of Day up. Which I kinda agree with, too long a Day saps interest in the game. > > One thing to add to the whole handshaking nonsense, which wasn’t really made clear by Ed’s little breakdown. If at any point the number of confirmed Town is greater than the number of scum+unconfirmed, the game is over Town wins barring extra kills/recruitment types. That’s the power of confirmed Town. I remember my first ever game. At end game, there was 3 confirmed Town, 2 scum and me, unconfirmed Town. I committed suicicde by mod, which guaranteed Town would win. because of this, I think ModKilled players should be removed from their team an automatically lose. And maybe have a one-game suspension 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/428 "2010-08-13T21:25:06Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > > [@peekercpa](#): > > > > major fucking cool. now we can have a potential pis discussion. > > > > sheesh. > > Is it PIS to speculate that, of the characters from the books, one of the roles in this game is Gollum, when Gollum is (1) a central character in the books and (2) perfectly suited to be a third-party role in this game? it was the fracking ring comment and you know it **gadarene**. where the hell did you even mention gollum in your post? jeebus. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/429 "2010-08-13T21:25:13Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > major fucking cool. now we can have a potential pis discussion. > sheesh. :rolleyes: Quick with the complaints. What would you have us talk about? You’ve contributed very little. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/430 "2010-08-13T21:26:15Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > NETA: And obviously I’m not saying **Pleo** is scum,\* since we have so little information about anyone at this stage, and obviously you all have far more experience playing with him and his tactics than I do. But his reasons for claiming, as stated, seem kinda illogical and ridiculous to me…so if anyone would like to take a crack at explaining to me, using small words, why such a claim would _ever_ benefit town at this stage of the game, be my guest. > > Look: if he is a town power role, he’s just given scum valuable information and planted a big ol’ target on his back without doing anything to appreciably help town. If he’s not a town power role, he’s lying, and I’m given to understand that lying is normally, y’know, a bad thing. Hence my confusion about why people seem to be treating it fairly blithely. > > \*Perfectly happy to FOS, though. Not too many people aside from Pleo see a pro-Town benefit to this tactic, and he’s unwilling to explain it. It’s suspicous yes. Maybe he’s jsut setting himself up to won as Scum by doing it as Town. Thereby perhaps granting him a benefit of the doubt from a tracker or watcher. I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/431 "2010-08-13T21:26:29Z")
neta: your initial post. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/432 "2010-08-13T21:29:05Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@peekercpa](#): > > > > major fucking cool. now we can have a potential pis discussion. > > sheesh. > > :rolleyes: > Quick with the complaints. What would you have us talk about? You’ve contributed very little. sorry, but the weekend doth loom and i am just kind of limbering up. expect a greater level of participation over the next day or so. and i haven’t played in a while so i just kind of getting my legs underneath me. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/433 "2010-08-13T21:34:22Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > Is it PIS to speculate that, of the characters from the books, one of the roles in this game is Gollum, when Gollum is (1) a central character in the books and (2) perfectly suited to be a third-party role in this game? > > it was the fracking ring comment and you know it **gadarene**. where the hell did you even mention gollum in your post? > > jeebus. third-party role? wincon involving a precious object? yeah, dunno why I thought I was talking about Gollum. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/434 "2010-08-13T21:35:45Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > On another note, would it be worthwhile at this point to discuss the possibility/likelihood of a third-party role with a wincon tied to a particular, um, precious object – oh, let’s say a ring – and the potential implications of that role (and the existence of that object) on the game mechanics? Harry Potter Mafia had a trick like that - if scum killed HP a Day would be lost (next Night would start right away). Gollum is the model PFK lore-wise so that would be another argument against a mass (name) claim. I’m not sure if continuing the handshake at this point is really helpful as scum might have a vanilla PM - on the other hand it has already lead to a claim and players with a different PM being outed. We could consider a mass vanilla (with a handshake if needed) or power claim (Pleo style). At least it locks scum into picking their cover now so they cannot change it at their convience later. I think it would probably end up just result in a big distraction (although both for town and scum). ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/435 "2010-08-13T21:36:28Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > Though I have to say that Ed being involved in controversy is a null tell for him. I don’t think he can avoid it, regardless of alignment. Probably true. I tried stating in the sign-ups of a game that I was going to try to post less frequently. I did so and got a boatload of suspicion for the change in playstyle. :smack: Besides, it’s more fun for me this way. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/436 "2010-08-13T21:40:31Z")
First of all, I do not request Doctor protection. Between the fact that my power seems relatively minor, and the fact that any hypothetical Doctor has no particular reason yet to believe me, I think I would be an unwise choice of target. Better for the Doctor to protect emself, or whomever e trusts the most, or a strong player that e trusts at least somewhat. Second, my perceived slip: When **ed** asked me about my win condition section, and then stated that he himself did not have a win condition section, I concluded that the difference was because he was vanilla and I was a power role. I also mistakenly thought that this would be obvious to everyone, which is why I made the statement in [post 152](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12793096#post12793096) that he either identified himself as a liar or me as non-vanilla. In retrospect, of course, the disagreement over having a “win condition section” was just one of what constituted a “section”, but by then, I’d already made post 152. As to why I entered the discussion at all, my first post on the topic was because I didn’t understand what **ed** was doing, then I continued talking about it because it was the current topic of conversation and participation is good, and then I posted my win condition because **special ed** specifically asked me about it. As to what information I’m sitting on, and why I’m sitting on it, I’ll say a little bit more: I’m a sort of half-mason, I guess you could call it. I know the role name of one specific player. The role name is of an unambiguously good-aligned character, so I trust that that person is Town. Knowing the role name would also give the Scum a good chance of deducing whether that person is a power role (i.e., the name is either one that’s very likely to be a power role, or one that’s very likely to be vanilla). Confirmed Town are of course valuable, but they’re most valuable in the mid-game, if you can get a bunch of folks confirmed at once, so the Scum can’t kill them all right away, rather than trickling out one at a time to be Night-killed one at a time, which is why I’d prefer to wait until later to reveal my information. Of course, if this person claims for some reason, or is killed, then there’d be no reason any longer for me to sit on my information, and I would then use the hash I posted to prove that I knew. That confirmation that I knew is another reason that I decided to say what I did toDay. If that person had died or claimed and I just said “I knew that already”, nobody would have any reason to believe me. If I posted my hash some time after Day 1, and had later confirmed the hash, then I could prove that I knew in advance, but my knowledge might plausibly have come from a Scum Investigator. But by posting my hash toDay, I prove that it’s information I started the game with, and I think it relatively implausible that a Scum would have a power role that gives that sort of information at the start of the Day, so I could thereby eventually confirm myself. I hope that that clears things up enough, because I’m heavily disinclined to share any more information at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/437 "2010-08-13T21:44:22Z")
Huh. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/438 "2010-08-13T21:47:11Z")
i don’t like hash. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/439 "2010-08-13T21:48:39Z")
and the fucking “e”'s are hilarious by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/440 "2010-08-13T21:49:05Z")
As for the possibility of the Ring and/or Gollum, I think it’s pretty likely that there probably is a Ring mechanic of some sort (it was the central Macguffin of the books, so it’s reasonable for it to show up in something based on the books, too), but I don’t really have any guesses as to what it might be. The simplest guess would be that it’s the tiebreaker mechanic, like the Snitch was last game, but that wouldn’t really fit well with the Ring, I don’t think. On the Gollum question, well, a 23 player game probably has some extra killing mechanics, just to keep the game to a reasonable length, and Gollum would certainly fit as a Serial Killer (evil, but not at all aligned with the main evil faction). If, after toNight, we have two deaths, that will be my working hypothesis, especially if one of the deaths is described as strangulation. And his win condition might indeed have some connection to the hypothetical Ring mechanic. But I’ve never worried too much about Serial Killers, because I don’t have much of an idea how to find one: Most Scum tells won’t work on a Serial Killer, since the scum tells are based on Scum knowing who their teammates are, and SKs don’t have teammates. If we do happen to find and kill an SK, that’s great, and if the Scum happen to find and kill him, even better, but until then, I don’t see that there’s too much to be done about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=23)