# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/521 "2010-08-14T20:49:14Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > What would constitute playing consistently with that knowledge, though? I certainly won’t vote for the person **I know is Town** , but in a game this large, there are going to be a lot of people I’ll end up not voting for. If **the player I know is Town** comes under attack, I’d try to come to es defense, to the extent I could without directly outing em (it’s that player’s own call on when to be outed), but again, with so many players, that’s not likely to happen, either, and I could well end up defending someone else, too. **And even knowing that that person is Town** , that doesn’t necessarily mean that I’ll agree with em, since someone can be Town, and still be wrong. > > /snipped and bolding added > @ **Chronos** , has something happened for you to now know this player is Town? Earlier you just had a player’s name and their character. > > Do you have any reason to believe this player does not have the same information about you? Whoa, I totally glossed over that. I find it suspicious that he’d make the same mistake 3 times in a row. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/522 "2010-08-14T20:55:18Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > yeh, and the two that stick out like sore thumbs are **nat** and **drain**. If I have a sore thunbs it because of playing to much Starcraft 2 \>\_\>. > [@special\_ed](#): > > 1. Chronos says, “I know that Eomer is Town.” **ed** , it think you’re misreading there - **Chronos** only says he knows the rolename (which is a super goody one according to him). I really did know the alignment he basically would be half-a-mason and he would be really be magic bagging there. (On preview: you just found that out yourself.) I agree that there seems no point in not revealing the name now (and keep the player hidden) but nor is there a direct benefit. Actually if the player isn’t town (despite the lore mentioned) Chronos role could be a anti-fake name claim counter for that player - but that’s more me thinking of new roles than I would expect it to be in the game. The hash + salt role PM lockin would be save to prevent name brute-forcing (but seems to stray a bit far from the good ol’ Mom and Pop Mafia. My original suggestion was for only vanilla or power claim to lock scum in to picking that now to avoid revealing names. I think that either would be a lot of a mess with some doing it and some not (I doubt future game everyone will start with “Confirming I got my PM, MD-5 is alsidf34gun23”). ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/523 "2010-08-14T20:55:19Z")
@Chronos, the Scum could already be aware of how at least the Vanilla Role PM looks and be able to reverse hash those by using the names from LotR. Granted there are a lot of names, but it wouldn’t take that long to do so. And, what would the Scum have gained? A blueprint of who is Vanilla. Basically, all of the drawback to Vanillas confirmed by handshake with none of the benefits. Not terribly pro-Town, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/524 "2010-08-14T20:59:40Z")
I assume, based on what he’s said, that the name **Chronos** was given is one that, for all intents and purposes, could not conceivably be scum in a non-gastardly game (that is, assuming that **Mahaloth** hasn’t actually given **Chronos** the name of scum cover role). Put it this way: if there is a character whose true name is Gandalf in this game, I would be absolutely gobsmacked if that character was not Town (and, more than likely, a Town power role). I’ve seen absolutely nothing to indicate that **Mahaloth** would have given good-sounding names to scum (other than as a cover) or bad-sounding names to Town, so if **Chronos** says that the name he’s been given is unambiguously good-aligned, I think it’s safe to say that the player who has that role is Town, assuming **Chronos** is telling the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/525 "2010-08-14T21:05:22Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > What would constitute playing consistently with that knowledge, though? I certainly won’t vote for the person **I know is Town** , \ > > /snipped and bolding added > @ **Chronos** , has something happened for you to now know this player is Town? Earlier you just had a player’s name and their character. > > Do you have any reason to believe this player does not have the same information about you? I think Chronos is saying that the person-he-knows-the-rolename would know that Chronos is town? If I remember correctly he earlier argued that because there was no reason for scum to know the name he knows, then when that person gets confirmed, he’ll be confirmed? > [@](#): > > @Chronos, the Scum could already be aware of how at least the Vanilla Role PM looks and be able to reverse hash those by using the names from LotR. Granted there are a lot of names, but it wouldn’t take that long to do so. That is what the salt (some random text you add to you role PM) would be for. And Gandalf town: Yes, that would be most likely - but I can also see he as an survivor Third Party. In the books he was allowed to directly interfere most of the time, just guide the humans. If Sauron would win he could high tail it to the Grey Heavens. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/526 "2010-08-14T21:05:49Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > I assume, based on what he’s said, that the name **Chronos** was given is one that, for all intents and purposes, could not conceivably be scum in a non-gastardly game (that is, assuming that **Mahaloth** hasn’t actually given **Chronos** the name of scum cover role). Put it this way: if there is a character whose true name is Gandalf in this game, I would be absolutely gobsmacked if that character was not Town (and, more than likely, a Town power role). I’ve seen absolutely nothing to indicate that **Mahaloth** would have given good-sounding names to scum (other than as a cover) or bad-sounding names to Town, so if **Chronos** says that the name he’s been given is unambiguously good-aligned, I think it’s safe to say that the player who has that role is Town, assuming **Chronos** is telling the truth. In the first game I modded, based on Disney (I ran the game twice once on Facebook) Mickey Mouse was the Godfather. There are many more examples which I think others can give where the alignment does not match the canon. It’s a common tactic to overcome a mass name claim breaking the game and to through a red herring at the players. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/527 "2010-08-14T21:06:44Z")
Not edited even though it’s allowed, that should read: … can also see _him_ as an survivor Third Party. In the books he _wasn’t_ allowed … ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/528 "2010-08-14T21:15:38Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Put it this way: if there is a character whose true name is Gandalf in this game, I would be absolutely gobsmacked if that character was not Town (and, more than likely, a Town power role). Poor example. Wizards had an 80% failure rate. Saruman blew it completely, studying the lore of the Enemy to learn how to fight him, he became a weaker version of that Enemy. Radagast lost his way, becoming seduced by the lure of Nature and forgetting what he had been sent to do. As for the two Blue Wizards, they set off into the East and disappeared. Who knows what they got up to? We only know this; they forgot why they were there. It’s not beyond the pale to suppose that Gandalf forgot why he was there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/529 "2010-08-14T21:16:38Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > I assume, based on what he’s said, that the name **Chronos** was given is one that, for all intents and purposes, could not conceivably be scum in a non-gastardly game (that is, assuming that **Mahaloth** hasn’t actually given **Chronos** the name of scum cover role). Put it this way: if there is a character whose true name is Gandalf in this game, I would be absolutely gobsmacked if that character was not Town (and, more than likely, a Town power role). I’ve seen absolutely nothing to indicate that **Mahaloth** would have given good-sounding names to scum (other than as a cover) or bad-sounding names to Town, so if **Chronos** says that the name he’s been given is unambiguously good-aligned, I think it’s safe to say that the player who has that role is Town, assuming **Chronos** is telling the truth. > > In the first game I modded, based on Disney (I ran the game twice once on Facebook) Mickey Mouse was the Godfather. > > There are many more examples which I think others can give where the alignment does not match the canon. It’s a common tactic to overcome a mass name claim breaking the game and to through a red herring at the players. I guess it’s possible, although (as one data point) all of the characters in Harry Potter had the alignments that one would expect from canon (right down to Snape being able to choose his side), and the cover roles the scum were given were those of major supporting characters (like McGonnagal), not anyone who might be considered a lead protagonist. So while I could see scum being given a cover role of, say, Boromir, I think it’s really, really unlikely that they were given the _actual_ name Boromir, and I think it’s similarly unlikely that they would be given a cover role of one of the central good-aligned characters like Frodo or Aragorn. Obviously I still think a mass name-claim is a horrible idea, though, for the reasons I gave way back in the beginning of Night Zero. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/530 "2010-08-14T21:18:01Z")
NETA: Thanks for the clarification, **MHaye**. My relative unfamiliarity with the canon bites me in the butt again. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/531 "2010-08-14T21:50:21Z")
It’s fine to be unfamiliar. I’ve played in several games where I had no idea about the canon. Firefly, Dr Horrible, Marvel Civil War - all of which were on Idle’s site. Didn’t handicap me much. At this stage, the only things we know are those contained in our individual role PMs (unless we’re one of SAHM in which case we may have had a chance to talk with our fellow Minions.) We don’t know what policy Mahaloth adopted to stop a Day 1 mass claim from breaking the game open and ruining it. When people start dying we’ll have some facts on which to base our speculation. On a more general matter. When dealing with a suggested name claim, I’d like to point out that Zymurgy’s Seventh Law of Evolving System Dynamics applies to any claim in Mafia. That Law states: - “Once you open a can of worms, the only way to recan them is to use a larger can.” Applied to Mafia, what this is telling you is that once you make a claim, it’s impossible to unclaim and make it never happened. There may be a very good reason to keep shtum about names. For example, a character may be hunted by nefarious forces. As an example, in Firefly mafia, River Tam was being sought by no less than three people in the game. If the Hand of Blue had found her, River would have been killed. If the Alliance has someone being hunted by SAHM (and while, canonically, Frodo is the obvious quarry, Gandalf and Aragorn are also plausible targets for the hunt) a name claim would be a disaster. Allies of Light can’t afford to lie about their names, because if it comes out they’ll be lynched by reflex. So they claim honestly, and get taken out. On recruitment. As soon as I saw the question, I thought “Morgul-knives.” In canon, a weapon that was able to leave a bit of itself in a wound. The shard was capable of continuing to burrow through the victim If it reached the heart, the victim became a wraith under the control of the knifewielder. The Witch-King of Angmar stabbed Frodo with one on Weathertop (in Book 1.) So we can’t rule it out, especially if the Witch-King is in play. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/532 "2010-08-14T23:45:02Z")
Put it this way: It’s one thing to not follow the canon, so that an evil character’s real name is someone who was a good guy in the original book (making Mickey Mouse a villain, say). I can’t say I’m a big fan of that, since if you’re going to be changing the canon that much, what’s the point of even using the book in the first place, but others have done it, so sure, it’s something we need to consider. But to not only make Mickey Mouse evil, but to also give some other player the information that so-and-so is Mickey Mouse without specifying alignment? That’s just gastard. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/533 "2010-08-14T23:56:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Put it this way: It’s one thing to not follow the canon, so that an evil character’s real name is someone who was a good guy in the original book (making Mickey Mouse a villain, say). I can’t say I’m a big fan of that, since if you’re going to be changing the canon that much, what’s the point of even using the book in the first place, but others have done it, so sure, it’s something we need to consider. But to not only make Mickey Mouse evil, but to also give some other player the information that so-and-so is Mickey Mouse without specifying alignment? That’s just gastard. It could very well be information that is useful to someone. It’s also possibly information that could be taken from you. Perhaps if Sauron ‘gives you the eye’ He can read your secret. There are so many possibilities that it’s just ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/534 "2010-08-15T00:03:40Z")
I’m pretty sure that Mahaloth is writing down notes for his next game… ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/535 "2010-08-15T00:21:44Z")
jeebus this talk about canon is tiresome. at least i know some of the folks and circumstances. based on the mod composition i can certainly see where canon and game state are not entirely inconsistent. maybe saruman as third party. mickey mouse as evil makes sense. have you ever been to disneyworld? maybe gandalf decides to make a run with sauron. crap maybe the horse folks tell aragorn to pound sand and establish their own empire in the east. it’s fascinating, however. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/536 "2010-08-15T01:41:01Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > > > I had a bit of a hard time with this statement (ed’s reply, just to clarify). \*\*Chronos \*\*had told us “The role name is of an unambiguously good-aligned character, so I trust that that person is Town.”, so I wondered why ed was talking about killing and recruitment. If Chronos is Town with a power role, then he’s not likely to be killing Frodo. And if he’s scum (or 3rd party), then I’d think getting him to reveal the role (as Gadarene suggests) would be a positive thing; if Frodo then turned up dead Tomorrow morning, we’d have a pretty good idea where to start looking for his killer. > > > > FTR, I do think it’s probably best for Chronos to keep silent at this point, but i very much diskile ed’s reasoning. > > you can diskile it all you want…:smack: > > I’m not sure what good it would do to identify the role for us for just the reason you identify. Let’s say Chronos says he knows Frodo is Town, and then Frodo ends up dead, you’d immediately suspect him, but does it mean Chronos did anything untoward? > > I don’t see the point. Please explain to me what possible good it can do if Chronos identifies the role that he knows is Town? And please take into consideration what impact it might have on the game if we discover this person and Chronos is a) alive b) dead and confirmed Town c) dead and confirmed Scum d) dead and confirmed 3rd party. I think you’re misunderstood what I said here. I am against Chronos identifying the role. I said it in the post you quoted here (Post 493), and repeated it in Post 498. > [@special\_ed](#): > > > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > > > Yes, that’s what bothers me as well. The only way ed’s statement makes any sense is if \*\*Chronos \*\*is lying (which is always a possibility), and I don’t think his argument is logical even in that case. > > > > If Chronos is lying, then there’s no risk to anyone if he tells us what he ‘knows’, because he’s making the whole thing up in the first place. If he’s telling the truth, then I still don’t know how saying “I know which player has the identity ‘Elrond’” is going to hurt anyone, but I can’t see how it can help anyone but Chronos either. > > > > Since we can’t verify whether of not Chronos is telling the truth, and the information he claims to have doesn’t seem to be of any value at this point, I think he should keep it to himself. Perhaps there will come a time when it will be valuable; if so it should be saved for that time. > > Are you just pretending to be dense? I’m not pretending anything. You said that it was possible \*\*Chronos \*\*might be trying to kill or recruit a certain character, and for that reason he shouldn’t reveal the role that he has knowledge of. I disagreed. I don’t think there would be harm in him revealing nothing more than a character name, since that in itself conveys no information. The person who has that role would then know that either a)Chronos has information about him/her, or b) Chronos is a bit fat liar who happened to guess the name of a major lore figure correctly. If and when that player was facing a possible lynching, they would need to determine whether to trust Chronos or not. Hopefully, by that time they would have considerably more information than we have now. Of course this assumes that the name Chronos names is actually in use in the game. If Chronos were lying, he might pick the name ‘Samwise Gamgee’, but there might not be a Sam in the game. But nobody would no that until the game ended, so CHronos information would still be meaningless. In any case, there would be no harm in revealing the _character name only_, but neither would there be any benefit. And for that reason, I think that Chronos should not announce the name of the role. We don’t need to muddy the waters further with useless information. Actually, there is one way that Chronos naming the role would be ‘useful’. That is if it were followed by a mass name claim. It has already been more than adequately explained why this would be a Very Bad Thing. Chronos didn’t actually call for a name claim in Post 501, but he came pretty darn close. I don’t think he’s scum, because his ‘mistake’ would have been that much worse (and therefore that much less likely to have been made in the first place), but there’s something about his posts that doesn’t sit at all well. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/537 "2010-08-15T01:49:06Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I think you’re misunderstood what I said here. I am against Chronos identifying the role. I said it in the post you quoted here (Post 493), and repeated it in Post 498. Perhaps I was a bit upset over the fact that while you were agreeing with me, you were also smudging me by saying that you didn’t like my reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/538 "2010-08-15T01:52:11Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Actually, there is one way that Chronos naming the role would be ‘useful’. That is if it were followed by a mass name claim. It has already been more than adequately explained why this would be a Very Bad Thing. Chronos didn’t actually call for a name claim in Post 501, but he came pretty darn close. I don’t think he’s scum, because his ‘mistake’ would have been that much worse (and therefore that much less likely to have been made in the first place), but there’s something about his posts that doesn’t sit at all well. Boy, you agree with me, but _dislike my reasoning_. Now you don’t think Chronos is Scum, _but there’s something about his posts that doesn’t sit at all well._ That’s just icky. As a question, did you decide that Chronos is likely not Scum by a “Scum wouldn’t do that” line of thinking? ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/539 "2010-08-15T02:05:39Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I don’t think there would be harm in him revealing nothing more than a character name, since that in itself conveys no information. The person who has that role would then know that either a)Chronos has information about him/her, or b) Chronos is a bit fat liar who happened to guess the name of a major lore figure correctly. Remind me how said player would know anything about Chronos at all? If he’s telling the truth, or if he’s guessing a name, how would that player know the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/540 "2010-08-15T02:39:05Z")
Almost done with the home repairs. House goes on the market on Monday–all we really have left to do is some heavy, heavy cleaning. Hopefully by Monday I’ll be able to participate more. The last few weeks have been a total slog for me. Some general comments on game mechanics: First off, whatever this hash thing is really isn’t my cup of tea. This is unrelated to whether or not it gives Town a better chance of winning–for all I know, it might…but it’s not Mafia. I’m a bit of a purist and prefer to keep breadcrumbs in the actual text of my post. It’s not fun to me to turn it into a cryptogram. Second, I definitely don’t think a traditional mass name claim is warranted now. I’ve played in games that Mahaloth has modded and am semi-attempting to create one with him as one of my co-mods, and I know that he would have put something in place to ensure that a name-claim was at best useless and at worst quite damaging to Town. And in a game with this color, I’m concerned about folks who might be seeking the Ring, and very concerned about how a name claim might affect that. I’d be shocked if some roles weren’t designed around finding or keeping the Ring. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=28)