# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/541 "2010-08-15T03:06:14Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > > > Actually, there is one way that Chronos naming the role would be ‘useful’. That is if it were followed by a mass name claim. It has already been more than adequately explained why this would be a Very Bad Thing. Chronos didn’t actually call for a name claim in Post 501, but he came pretty darn close. I don’t think he’s scum, because his ‘mistake’ would have been that much worse (and therefore that much less likely to have been made in the first place), but there’s something about his posts that doesn’t sit at all well. > > Boy, you agree with me, but _dislike my reasoning_. > > Now you don’t think Chronos is Scum, _but there’s something about his posts that doesn’t sit at all well._ > > That’s just icky. > As a question, did you decide that Chronos is likely not Scum by a “Scum wouldn’t do that” line of thinking? You and I came to the same conclusion: “Chronos shouldn’t divulge any information”. I think that the line of reasoning you gave to support that conclusion doesn’t make sense. I don’t think your logic supports the conclusion that you gave. There are several possible reasons for this: [ul] [li]You used faulty logic, but nonetheless reached the same conclusion as I did[/li][li]You used good logic, but it was unclear to me (either because I misunderstood you or because you misspoke)[/li][li]You don’t actually believe the statement you made, but wish us to think you do, and made a mistake in ‘inventing’ an explanation[/li][/ul] So I “agree with you” in the sense that we both came to the same stated conclusion. I’m just not sure if you mean what you said, or if you have an ulterior motive. In either case, at the moment I don’t trust you. As for Chronos, I don’t think he’s scum. Not because “Scum wouldn’t do that”, but because “Scum wouldn’t be that careless to make such a big mistake” (a rather fine distinction, I admit). I think that most likely Chronos is exactly what he says he is, and he just goofed. I think the second most likely explanation is that he is a third party. But in any case, at the moment, I don’t trust him. > [@USCDiver](#): > > > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > > > I don’t think there would be harm in him revealing nothing more than a character name, since that in itself conveys no information. The person who has that role would then know that either a)Chronos has information about him/her, or b) Chronos is a bit fat liar who happened to guess the name of a major lore figure correctly. > > Remind me how said player would know anything about Chronos at all? If he’s telling the truth, or if he’s guessing a name, how would that player know the difference? That was part of the point I was trying to make. The player in question _wouldn’t_ know anything about Chronos. He might be telling the truth and he might be making it up. There’s no way to tell anything given the single piece of information. And that’s why I don’t think it should be given. It would just generate ‘noise’, which would at best be distracting, and at worst be exactly what the ‘bad guys’ (scum and/or 3rd parties) want. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/542 "2010-08-15T03:38:20Z")
My original reason for voting **Suburban Plankton** was non-participation, and he looks to be participating at a reasonable level now. I’m still uneasy about his “there’s nothing to talk about” post, but I don’t think that’s enough to hang a vote on any more. **Unvote Suburban Plankton** I’m too tired to go hunting for other potential votes right now, so I’ll just leave it at that until tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/543 "2010-08-15T04:12:49Z")
wow, a lot of talk going on even for a saturday. I’m still playing catchup, but to be honest I’m feeling that too much of the talk is surrounding a couple of players. And while one or all of them may be scum. I’m getting bored of mechanical talk, but I’ve been distracted all day and haven’t been able to turn intuition into anything meaningful yet. [oog]PS Go see “Scott Pilgrim V the World” it’s fun as hell if you like Edgar Wright movies, comic movies, or video games. [/oog] ---
**Author:** ![cucuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@cucuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cucuy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/544 "2010-08-15T06:37:58Z")
**Red** , I hear ya. I’ve been away all day, trying to catch up. Even tho it’s just one page of posts since my last visit, there’s still plenty of discussion and a lot of opinions to digest. > [@Chronos](#): > > Put it this way: It’s one thing to not follow the canon, so that an evil character’s real name is someone who was a good guy in the original book (making Mickey Mouse a villain, say). I can’t say I’m a big fan of that, since if you’re going to be changing the canon that much, what’s the point of even using the book in the first place, but others have done it, so sure, it’s something we need to consider. But to not only make Mickey Mouse evil, but to also give some other player the information that so-and-so is Mickey Mouse without specifying alignment? That’s just gastard. I think if we wait until Dawn and read what **Mahaloth** posts, we may have a clearer understanding of this game, how it relates to LoTR canon. But if, say, he rolls out with “…The Fellowship was attacked last night on Weathertop…” I think it’s safe to say he’s not following the canon. This is just my second game with **Mahaloth** modding; he set up _Weird West_ interestingly, but not gastardly, IMO. I’m not a fan of gastard games but I won’t quit if this turns out to be a gastard. ---
**Author:** ![cucuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@cucuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cucuy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/545 "2010-08-15T06:52:19Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > > [@cucuy](#): > > > > Which brings up another question: in that game **USCDiver** was outed as scum, but in fact was a Miller. I’ve followed other games where the Miller situation was addressed, and the general consensus was that the Miller should claim early, like Day 1, to avoid problems later. Would the consensus be the same here? > > Yeah, and in that game my role PM did not explicitly state I was a miller (something to the effect of “something about that boy ain’t right!”) I had not even considered the possibility it meant I was a miller and so when my name came up Scum I just assumed that the investigator (who had not claimed or been confirmed prior to that IIRC) was lying. Very frustrating for me. So the moral of the story is: if your role PM seems off for some reason, maybe you’re an unknown miller. I was the Investigator, and I had claimed prior to outing you. I’d correctly outed storyteller as scum the previous night and got the same results from your investigation. I had every reason to think you were scum and based on my success I got enough players to back me in lynching you. When you flipped Town, as a Miller, I felt foolish but chalked it up to not understanding all possible outcomes (like having a Miller in the game, let alone an unknown one). > [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > Millers should never claim on their own. Even in a mass claim, there better off just claiming vanilla. As long as they aren’t investigated, they are vanilla town. If they do claim, they have to be lynched. Because to do otherwise is to let scum get away with a miller claim. > > Never claim if you are a miller. It’s pointless and guarantees a mislynch. I disagree. I used to think that a Miller claim, early in the game, was wrong because it shrunk the pool of VTs for a town power to hide in. I think it’s best for all that a Miller (if known) should claim right off the bat. Reasons being: [ul]they will only muddy the water for Investigators [\*]if scum tried to claim as Miller they are basically giving up, because town would and should lynch them at the next opportunity. (Unless a bigger fish reveals itself.)[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![cucuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@cucuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cucuy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/546 "2010-08-15T07:06:41Z")
[Taken from **Chronos’** post, [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12801400&postcount=519)] > [@](#): > > Quoth **Gadarene** : > > > [@](#): > > > > NETA: I’m not familiar with how hashes work, Chronos. Are they crackable? > > Hashes lose information and are therefore not reversible, but it is still possible to attack them forward, by taking a suspected message and seeing if it hashes correctly. If the set of possible original messages is large enough, though, it foils this sort of attack. I am having trouble understanding how hashes work. And your reply doesn’t make it easier. At the risk of appearing a complete idiot can you breakdown what you said? Unless it’s a moot point, and we are foregoing hashes as a way of handshaking. I don’t mean to condescend, I think that your approach has merit and can work, under optimum circumstances. (At least, better than a mass claim.) It’s just that this is the first I’ve heard of it and I’d really like to understand it. An link to a wiki would be fine. ---
**Author:** ![cucuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@cucuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cucuy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/547 "2010-08-15T07:25:59Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Not a whole lot of action overnight, as to be expected, but there are a couple items that caught my interest in the last 12 hours or so… > > \*\*cucuy \*\*finally appeared among us, but has yet to really contribute anything. He makes a couple statements in post [449](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12799259&postcount=449) about handshaking and confirming roles, but those two issues had already been pretty much talked out long before that point. Then comes back a little later to chime in on a discussion about previous Mafia games. But he still hasn’t contributed anything of substance to this game. Not that it tells us anything, but it’s somewhat disappointing. Am I wrong to ask how mechanics of the game are being addressed? This is the first time I’ve played in a game where this kind of discussion was going on, and I want to learn as much as I can. Each game I play gives me more insight into how to be a better participant. If you’re calling me out for being late to the party, I can understand that. But just so you know, I don’t have a lot of time to spend on a computer. I log on in the evenings because I don’t have access at work, and I like to read the latest posts before making an opinion. The fact that Day 1 is usually a lot of meta-gaming, and talk about game mechanics is one of the best parts of mafia. But just what kind of participation are you asking? > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > FTR, I do think it’s probably best for Chronos to keep silent at this point, but i very much diskile ed’s reasoning. So now you want some players to shut up and others to speak up… I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![cucuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@cucuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cucuy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/548 "2010-08-15T07:37:47Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > > [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > > > How did you come up with 5 being the threshold number for those who are participating adequately and those who are not? > > I pulled it out of thin air, I suppose because it’s one of those ‘nice round numbers’. > > I suppose I could have picked 8, which was the median number of posts per poster at the time (assuming both my counting and Excel skills are up to snuff). That would have raised the number of ‘non-participatory’ posters to either 11 or 12, depending on whether or not we’re counting ‘less than’ or ‘less than or equal to’. I’m not convinced this is the way to proceed, tallying post counts to determine the validity of each participant. As it stands now, **peeker** has _five times_ your number of posts; does that make him a better player, or better participant? Or worse, less scummy that the rest of us? ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/549 "2010-08-15T08:21:15Z")
@ **Cucuy** : It’s not about being more posts making you a better player. It’s just that lurking IS a strong scum strategy, so as town we can’t allow anyone to lurk. Your reaction is, to be honest, suspicious. It sounds like newbietalk. If you were a new player, I could write off your defensiveness as just not catching on to the game yet. A newbie might conflate being a “better player” with being pro-town, but you’re not new, you should know better. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/550 "2010-08-15T11:59:09Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > In my typical beginning of the game strategy: > > Last section: 7 a’s and 8 t’s. no x’s > > 😃 > > Now we’ll wait until the standard role PM is posted publically. > [@Pleonast](#): > > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > > From a theory point of view, in the future, there are much better ways to handshake with a shared secret then the letter counting method used so far. That method reveals too much information. Instead, use a hash of the “signed” secret. For example, let’s say my victory condition isYou win all scum are dead.I append my username to that and compute a hash.You win all scum are dead.PleonastThe [CRC32](http://www.fileformat.info/tool/hash.htm) of that is df2216d2. This method allows anyone with the same victory condition to confirm mine is the same, while making it difficult for a player with a different condition to forge a fake hash. \*\*I Don’t know, I am sick and tired of having a made up distraction on Day 1. \*\* If it was the avalanche of Handshakes, it would be one thing. If it was the talking on and on about Hash codes, it would be another. Both seem to be all bark, no bite. I wonder if the Hash code talk wasn’t concocted in a parallel thread, off board. [quote=“Mahaloth, post:24, topic:549867”] > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > 1. Can the Servants of Darkness communicate secretly during the Day?\*\*[/color] > > 1. No comment. * * * On preview I See that the above tags messed up. [Here is the post I refer to. 24.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12787604&postcount=24) * * * I begin to wonder if the second question isn’t instead, a “yes”. [Instead of a No Comment.] That is, I would bet we have a 24/7 scum board. * * * For **Peeker** in particular, and for everyone else as well:: Should we treat Special Ed’s handshake [Assuming it is one], on it’s own merit, or do we let the subsequent comments affect it’s value? \*\* Should we treat Special Ed’s handshake in the same way as Peeker’s wicked which youtube claim ? Seem pretty similar to me, in retrospect. \*\* I mean, It would seem we are always given 85% or so and we dwell forever on the 15%. To the point that it is a first day distraction. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/551 "2010-08-15T13:58:15Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Should we treat Special Ed’s handshake [Assuming it is one], on it’s own merit, or do we let the subsequent comments affect it’s value? > > \*\* > Should we treat Special Ed’s handshake in the same way as Peeker’s wicked which youtube claim ? Seem pretty similar to me, in retrospect. \*\* > > I mean, It would seem we are always given 85% or so and we dwell forever on the 15%. To the point that it is a first day distraction. Day 1’s will always be filled with so-called distractions. Without them, we’d have very little to get the talking started with. Um, we should of course consider all commentary in the light of it’s individual merit and in the light of the game as a whole. Ed’s handshake would carry a lot more weight if the mod had come in and posted the role pm. Since the mod had not done so, it means that the handshake attempt was fruitless for it’s direct purpose. The indirect effects however are sure to be felt. I am unclear about how you can make comments “in retrospect” regarding special ed’s handshake attempt. In Random Mafia, Peeker was town who was lynched for being cryptic with his name claim. In Lord of the Rings mafia, ed is what? and he hasn’t been lynched? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say there. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/552 "2010-08-15T15:54:07Z")
> [@cucuy](#): > > I think if we wait until Dawn and read what **Mahaloth** posts, we may have a clearer understanding of this game, how it relates to LoTR canon. But if, say, he rolls out with “…The Fellowship was attacked last night on Weathertop…” I think it’s safe to say he’s not following the canon. > > This is just my second game with **Mahaloth** modding; he set up _Weird West_ interestingly, but not gastardly, IMO. I’m not a fan of gastard games but I won’t quit if this turns out to be a gastard. \ two quick observations. first, i doubt seriously that this is gastard. with the mods we have, to be playing that game and not letting us know would be gastard x 2. so i don’t see that as a possibility. but changing canon in such a way that what appears to be in the book is different in this game is not gastard. sure making sauron the bestest of all good townies would be “gastard” but tweaking alignments certainly does not fit into that category. second i thought the fellowship was attacked on weathertop. how is than not following canon? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/553 "2010-08-15T16:10:34Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > For **Peeker** in particular, and for everyone else as well:: > > Should we treat Special Ed’s handshake [Assuming it is one], on it’s own merit, or do we let the subsequent comments affect it’s value? > > \*\* > Should we treat Special Ed’s handshake in the same way as Peeker’s wicked which youtube claim ? Seem pretty similar to me, in retrospect. \*\* i see some similarity but with opposite intentions. when i you tubed we were doing the name claim thing. i did something that i thought was “cute” at the time and apparantly just pissed everyone off. ed was trying to perform something that would confirm vanillas. now, in theory this is good. but that also presumes that scum have not been given that information. and with **maha** , **story** and **sach** (some of the stronger players and more well thought out mods - never hurts to suck up) i think it was pretty far fetched that that crew hadn’t figured out a way to make that ploy unsucessful. plus, i think **ed** even mentioned that when the handshakes he has attempted have occurred it’s about 50/50. about what a typical game result would be. now he further mentions that this is better than his overall run rate. but, i don’t see how that helps me. the best thing about what **ed** did was get people talking. and for that he gets a kewpie doll. this board has been the death of mafia games recently. so to get some life into the thread is a bonus. that doesn’t make him town, and he still yanks my chain to no end, but he gets a pass toDay from me, for sure. so yeh, now that you make me type it out they probably were similar. i knew my youtube post was going to ruffle feathers and create discussion. and i am probably talking totally out my ass but i can envision a scenario where **ed** does the handhsake thing just to stir the fucking pot and create discussion. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/554 "2010-08-15T16:40:08Z")
neta: and i want to add this or at least ask a question. in the games that **ed** has attempted the handshake thing town really fares no better than if just random. but i think he was town in all of those instances. now, i don’t remember if scum were provided cover/vanilla/whatever roles in those games. so that means that **ed** is most likely town or that scum have been provided information that would make a handshake meaningless and potentially damaging to town. which to be totally frank is something that **ed** as scum would realize and implement. ton of WIFOM at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/555 "2010-08-15T17:16:08Z")
**cucuy** , have you ever gone by another name? I don’t recall playing with you on here, but maybe I have and just don’t know it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/556 "2010-08-15T17:43:55Z")
With the way games have been going around here lately, Town winning half of the games where handshakes were used doesn’t actually sound all that bad. **cucuy** , you asked about how hashes work. Basically, you take a plaintext message of any length in, and the hash function turns it into a random-looking string of fixed length. The same input will always give the same output, but given only the output, it’s extremely difficult (certainly, beyond the resources of anyone in a game like this) to find an input that gives that output. So if someone posts a hash, and then later posts a message that produces that hash, it essentially guarantees that that’s how they got the hash in the first place, thus guaranteeing that they had the message at that time. But someone who just had the hash would not be able to use it to determine what the message was until they were given it. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/557 "2010-08-15T18:24:58Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Both seem to be all bark, no bite. I wonder if the Hash code talk wasn’t concocted in a parallel thread, off board. > > \ > > I begin to wonder if the second question isn’t instead, a “yes”. [Instead of a No Comment.] That is, I would bet we have a 24/7 scum board. Can you go into a little more detail about why you think there is 24/7 scum board? The mods have given no indication of this and I’m not seeing anything in the hash discussion that indicates any kind of coordination. This smells of PIS. > [@peekercpa](#): > > second i thought the fellowship was attacked on weathertop. how is than not following canon? The hobbits (with Aragorn) were attacked on Weathertop prior to arriving in Rivendell and forming the Fellowship. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/558 "2010-08-15T19:24:08Z")
> [@](#): > > The hobbits (with Aragorn) were attacked on Weathertop prior to arriving in Rivendell and forming the Fellowship. Sure, but we’re all starting the game together. When you’re basing a game where everyone starts together on a story that had people joining up from all over the place, there’s bound to be some inconsistencies like that. And besides, we’re not all in the Fellowship, since there’s more than nine of us. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/559 "2010-08-15T19:30:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The hobbits (with Aragorn) were attacked on Weathertop prior to arriving in Rivendell and forming the Fellowship. > > Sure, but we’re all starting the game together. When you’re basing a game where everyone starts together on a story that had people joining up from all over the place, there’s bound to be some inconsistencies like that. And besides, we’re not all in the Fellowship, since there’s more than nine of us. That’s fine, I wasn’t making any comments on this Game, I was answering peeker’s question about why the fellowship being attacked at Weathertop isn’t canon. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/560 "2010-08-15T19:45:39Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > so that means that **ed** is most likely town or that scum have been provided information that would make a handshake meaningless and potentially damaging to town. which to be totally frank is something that **ed** as scum would realize and implement. > > ton of WIFOM at this point. This is why I voted for him. I did not understand the value of a bunch of confirmed VTs and so couldn’t work out why he attempted to handshake based on more than just the wincon. If a scummy **Ed** had access to the VT PM, and, being scum already knew who was Town (or possibly 3rd party), by using a section of the vanilla PM he could pretend to be helping Town create a bunch of confirmed VTs but actually was exposing non-VT players for the scum to NK. Why else handshake with VT players only? I could only see a scum motivation. With **Red** ’s and then **Ed** ’s explanation, I could see that the action could have a pro-Town motivation and so backed off as the case was less clear-cut than I’d thought. He admitted the attempt had failed (#278, sorry, no links) over 150 posts after Mahaloth had posted (#121) since his initial handshake. Between these two posts he actively encouraged further handshaking despite knowing the risks involved. I’d strongly consider him Town if he’d discouraged further attempts when he posted in #124, #127, #128, #132, #134, etc. but as it is, I’m torn. Admittedly less than 20 hours passed between #121 and #278. Yeah, WIFOM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=29)