# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/821 "2010-08-18T03:13:08Z")
i’m in time out or i would respond vehemently. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/822 "2010-08-18T03:36:34Z")
And now, onto the meat. That’s a long post. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > There are things that have been bothering me about ed’s posts, and I’d like to lay them out here and see if a case develops. I’m sorry this is so long. See if a case develops? You mean see if anyone buys what you’re selling? Shouldn’t you know if it’s a case or not? Of course, please allow me to correct your factual and logical errors. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You introduced the handshaking, which didn’t work. I can’t hold that against you, since you seemed to be helping the town. But your questioning of Chronos never sat right with me. You asked what his win condition section looked like, and then sprung a Gotcha! moment on him when he answered. The whole semantic debate seemed like such an unnecessary distraction, even if you were _technically_ right about the lack of a specific, explicit win condition section. OK, so I was right, and Chronos was mistaken. I don’t think your case-building is off to a good start. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > In fact, you picked at Chronos from the get-go. > > > [@Special Ed](#): > > > > You obviously don’t know me well enough. > > > > Last section. Did you look at the last section? > > > > Look at the letters I identified. > > > > Hmm…I wonder what that means. > > > > Now, of course, if you don’t have teh standard role PM, then this would be meaningless to you, no? > > > > But if you did, then you’d likely be Town. > > > [@Special Ed](#): > > > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > > > ``` > > > *Wait, I get it. That was intended as a handshake, wasn't it, **ed**?* > > > Do I do that? Almost every game? no, really? > > > > > > ``` > > Your post, and his post stating that he understood that it was a handshake, came at the same time. And yet, you’re snarky in that and your follow-up post. Why? It’s a needless distraction. OK, I’m snarky. Guilty as charged. I’m still not seeing a case. So far, I’m correct and I’m snarky. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You specifically ask about his win condition: > > > [@Special Ed](#): > > > > Of course, Chronos, if I’d asked you to look at the “win condition” section of your Role PM, what would you have told me? > > And then you accuse him of acting anti-town, and possibly scummy, when he gives a direct answer to your question. > > > [@Special Ed](#): > > > > It was definitely an anti-Town move until more information was generated. > > > > However, was it Scummy? > > > > :eek: Uh oh, I see a factual error here. See, I was saying that his posting of the actual Town win condition was anti-Town. I wasn’t saying that answering my question was anti-Town. See, it was the way he chose to answer my question that revealed more information than necessary. I can see how you could make that mistake intentionally or not. And yes, I suppose I was snarky again by referencing his anti-Town = Scummy and putting a wacky smiley face in there too. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You attack meeko for attempting to add to the handshake. Again, a needless distraction. Even if it’s just a joke, you’re not adding to the conversation. > > > [@Special Ed](#): > > > > There are many o’s. I applaud your counting abiities I make jokes and have comments that don’t contribute to the game. [snark]If that’s not some damn fine Scum hunting, I don’t know what is.[/snark] I put the extra tags in to help you out, AR > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You state on page 6, post 278 that you believe scum have all the information they’ll need to overcome any attempts at handshaking. You draw this conclusion because Mahaloth hasn’t posted and role PMs. I agree with this statement, but I’m posting it here so we have a sense of when you admitted this. > > After some helpful discussion, you reiterate that the handshakes aren’t working. > You also indicate that Chronos should not reveal the name of the role he knows, suggesting that Chronos might be looking for that particular player. > > Then there’s this. You admit that handshaking had a 2-2 win/loss ratio here on the straight dope. It’s statisically void. Compared to how incredibly gung-ho you were for the handshaking at the beginning of the game, and how much the handshaking did and continues to dominate the discussion, I feel like you’ve thrown an incredible red herring into the mix, one that by your admission seems to make very little difference in the outcome of the game. Your last sentence is especially meaningless, given how every game of mafia involves different rules, roles, and players, making any across-the-board comparison relatively meaningless. Uh oh! a logical fallacy! See, Town may not have done exceptionally well in the games where I did successfully handshake, but that doesn’t mean the handshake is invalid. Let me create an analogy for you. Andre Dawson, recently elected into the baseball hall of fame won the National League Most Valuable Player award in 1987. He had a truly outstanding season. The Cubs, for whom he played, finished in last place in their division. That doesn’t negate any of the successes he had at the plate. While team success is one tool for judging a particular event’s success, it’s not always the best tool. In some of those game, Confirmed Town players were created. That’s a good thing. Maybe Town was unable to turn that into a victory, but it certainly doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad move. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > And then you come down hard on Chronos for suggesting a name claim. How is this any different from the handshaking business? Either way, you end up with a pool of possibly confirmed players, and you have to work to sort out the scum liars from the group. The handshake separates the vanilla town from the power roles and scum, except when scum know the handshake. The name claim separates the vanilla town from the power roles and scum (maybe), except when scum make up their own names, and you have to work to sort the scum liars from the group. His idea is only somewhat worse than yours. Yet you vote for him based on it. This is post 513 if anybody wants to check up on this. OK\< this might be difficult to understand. Handshake success: 1. A pool of confirmed Town players = very good for Town Handshake failure: 1. Not a pool of confirmed Town players = Neutral Ok, goodness, do I really have to go over the benefits and drawbacks for a name claim? Can’t you just go read the discussion that was held? > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Worst of all, nobody mass-claimed as a result of Chronos’ comments! Yet you had plenty of people trying to handshake with you, possibly revealing all sorts of information to the scum among us. And you skate by with almost nobody questioning your intentions. Thank goodness no one claimed. I was irritated that he was pushing for it and I saw Scum motivation in it. What exactly is the Scum motivation in my attempt to handshake again? Oh, wait, you didn’t list one. You’ve just drawn comparisons between things that may appear similar on the surface but really aren’t. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > And then you go and claim anyway. I had already inadvertently indicated that I was a Vanilla Town. The handshake had failed. I provided Town the Vanilla Role PM (without a name claim, actually…imagine that, I didn’t do what Chronos was saying and what I was against.) so that Town would be able to have more information because some people are spreading the rumor that there are multiple Vanilla Role PMs. Should another Vanilla ever get in danger of being lynched, now they can indicate to Town if their PM is similar or not. Useful? I doubt it, but maybe. It’s information anyway. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > And shortly afterward, you think the handshaking is useful again, and people can use your role PM to clear up the multiple PMs issue. um…my posting the Vanilla Role PM was not an attempt to handshake. I think you may not know what the word means. So let’s take that part out of your statement. I certainly didn’t state handshaking was going to be useful again in this game. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > But wait, no you don’t, you think it failed again. > Then there’s this quote: > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > No one should believe that anyone who shook hands is in any way confirmed. > > > > I did attempt to handshake. > > > > I failed. > > > > I wasn’t used to failure with this particular gambit. Again, I was pretty consistent in thinking it failed. You are confusing me posting the Vanilla Role PM with attempting to handshake again. That’s just plain inaccurate. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Except for the two times you admitted town lost after handshaking, right? Those were failures. I can accept that maybe you were referring to it failing at the beginning, as opposed to eventually leading to a town loss. But I’d appreciate some consistency on this handshaking business, consistency you’re not offering. OK, well, did I clear up the inconsistencies for you? And yes, Town did lose twice when I attempted to handshake. Does that mean my handshake itself was unsuccessful? No. To go back to my analogy, Andre Dawson on many occassions in 1987 successfully hit a home run in games that the Cubs lost. Does that mean his home runs were unsuccessful? > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > **Vote special ed.** There’s a whole lot about this that rubs me the wrong way. Well, at least we agree on that, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/823 "2010-08-18T04:02:53Z")
**Vote special ed.** One of these days I’ll stop failing at this. > [@](#): > > um…my posting the Vanilla Role PM was not an attempt to handshake. I think you may not know what the word means. So let’s take that part out of your statement. I certainly didn’t state handshaking was going to be useful again in this game. Yes it is, and yes you do. You state: > [@](#): > > It’s information that is potentially useful if other Vanillas point out the unity of our Role PM before their death. Some people were commenting on the variety of Vanilla Role PMs, and I’m distrustful them. You still want to compare their “variety of vanilla role PMs” against your posted PM. You still think the handshake has value, despite repeatedly posting that it doesn’t. And you’re being disingenuous by suggesting I don’t know what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/824 "2010-08-18T04:10:46Z")
I’d just like to reiterate here that I never recommended or called for a mass name-claim. I called for a mass hash-claim, which does not have most of the drawbacks (so far as I can tell, none of the drawbacks, if it’s implemented correctly) of a name-claim but which has some of the same benefits. **Ed** , you say that you accidentally outed yourself as vanilla. But you also say that handshaking is something that you routinely do. If you’re so experienced at handshaking, then you should know that a non-vanilla handshake doesn’t work, and that therefore, any handshake is an implicit claim of vanilla. You knowingly and deliberately offered a handshake, and therefore, you deliberately claimed vanilla. One might argue that, given the possibility that a handshake might work, it was worth the small amount of information it gives Scum, but that’s not what you’re arguing. Rather, you’re arguing that you accidentally outed yourself, and that’s just not so. I’m also wondering about this: > [@](#): > > Though, it’s remarkable how the two of them [me and **peeker**] are in a similar situation from my point of view (both non-Vanilla) First of all, I’m definitely non-vanilla, but there’s no indication whatsoever about **peeker**. Just because he hasn’t claimed to have any knowledge of the vanilla PM doesn’t mean he’s not vanilla. In fact, not claiming any knowledge of the vanilla PM is the correct play, since to do otherwise would be an unprovoked claim. Second, even if you do think us both non-vanilla, what’s so remarkable about that? I mean, you should never vote for anyone unless you think that there’s a good chance they’re non-vanilla. Third, you’re basically voting for him because you think there’s evidence that he hasn’t seen the vanilla PM. But you also think that the handshaking failed to prove anything, which implies that you also think that the Scum have seen the vanilla PM. So the only people who wouldn’t have seen it would be Town power roles, which effectively means that you’re voting for **peeker** because you think he’s a Town power role. This is all just too much. **Vote special ed** On another note, **Suburban Plankton** ’s play is really poor right now. You think that **Pleonast** has an evil scheme to keep re-enforcing his power role claim and keep it in our minds, so to combat that, you re-enforce his power role claim and keep it in our minds? I don’t think it works that way. Now, I’m willing to cut _some_ slack for being new, and this poor play can be attributed to inexperience rather than to some ulterior motive. On the other hand, I’ve also seen it happen that a new player who happened to draw Scum for his first game deliberately set out to play poorly, leading Town down unwise paths and the like, with the intention of hiding behind newbishness if caught. So I really don’t want to cut all _that_ much slack for newbishness (besides, the school of hard knocks is a good teacher). ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/825 "2010-08-18T04:11:28Z")
> [@Astral Rejection\[/quote](#): > > You introduced the handshaking, which didn’t work. I can’t hold that against you, since you seemed to be helping the town. But your questioning of Chronos never sat right with me. You asked what his win condition section looked like, and then sprung a Gotcha! moment on him when he answered. The whole semantic debate seemed like such an unnecessary distraction, even if you were technically right about the lack of a specific, explicit win condition section. > [@special ed](#): > > OK, so I was right, and Chronos was mistaken. I don’t think your case-building is off to a good start. You have completely ignored why I brought this up. “So I was right and Chronos was mistaken” does not answer my question. Why did you ask Chronos what his win condition “section” said, if you didn’t believe you had a win condition “section?” > [@special ed](#): > > Handshake failure: > > 1. Not a pool of confirmed Town players = Neutral Wrong. A handshake failure does indeed not create a pool of confirmed town players. But it also hands scum plenty of information about the people who played along. Especially now that you’ve handed them a complete vanilla town PM to compare against those who posted. You were _assuming_ they had one. Now it’s certain. Anti-town, pro scum. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/826 "2010-08-18T04:11:34Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > **Vote special ed.** One of these days I’ll stop failing at this. > > > [@](#): > > > > um…my posting the Vanilla Role PM was not an attempt to handshake. I think you may not know what the word means. So let’s take that part out of your statement. I certainly didn’t state handshaking was going to be useful again in this game. > > Yes it is, and yes you do. You state: > > > [@](#): > > > > It’s information that is potentially useful if other Vanillas point out the unity of our Role PM before their death. Some people were commenting on the variety of Vanilla Role PMs, and I’m distrustful them. > > You still want to compare their “variety of vanilla role PMs” against your posted PM. You still think the handshake has value, despite repeatedly posting that it doesn’t. And you’re being disingenuous by suggesting I don’t know what I’m saying. Well, I’m telling you that you’re wrong. See, a handshake is an attempt to confirm myself and other Town players by revealing a little bit about our role PMs. If they all concur, then we know that we all have access to the same PM. Now, it would have worked if Mahaloth had gotten upset. What I did when I posted my Role PM was not an attempt to handshake and I did not describe it as such. The fact that you are describing it as such is an error. The fact that you are using your own incorrect description to accuse me of changing my story is…well..it’s doubleplusungood. What I was doing, and what I’ve repeatedly stated I was doing is to allow future verification if there is but one or more than 1 Vanilla Role PM. No attempt to form a confirmed club through mutual sharing of secret information. No confirmed Town players created. Just a tiny bit of information for the Town in the event of the possible lynch of a Vanilla Town player. That’s all. Why you insist on calling that a handshake is beyond me. You can call it a handshake all you want, but that doesn’t make it so. Either you fail to understand or you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts. Did you have any comments on the other errors you made in your case against me? [snark]Or did you just pick that one to continue to be wrong about.[/snark] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/827 "2010-08-18T04:18:05Z")
On a completely separate subject, a thought just occurred to me: A Scum might try to exploit **Mahaloth** ’s strict enforcement of the vote formatting rules. For instance, suppose at the end of the Day that there’s a close race between Scum A and a townie. Scum B might vote for Scum A, but “accidentally” make a formatting error, and not notice it until after the deadline. In this way, B would get Town cred for having (tried to) vote for the Scum, but would also not put his teammate in any greater danger of a lynch. It’s a no-drawback bus vote. I think we need to keep an eye out for this, and be extra-vigilant with our own posts near the end of the Day to make sure we don’t make any genuine mistakes like this. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/828 "2010-08-18T04:18:19Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > [@Astral Rejection\[/quote](#): > > > > You introduced the handshaking, which didn’t work. I can’t hold that against you, since you seemed to be helping the town. But your questioning of Chronos never sat right with me. You asked what his win condition section looked like, and then sprung a Gotcha! moment on him when he answered. The whole semantic debate seemed like such an unnecessary distraction, even if you were technically right about the lack of a specific, explicit win condition section. > > > [@special ed](#): > > > > OK, so I was right, and Chronos was mistaken. I don’t think your case-building is off to a good start. > > You have completely ignored why I brought this up. “So I was right and Chronos was mistaken” does not answer my question. Why did you ask Chronos what his win condition “section” said, if you didn’t believe you had a win condition “section?” Because if he did have a section like that, then I thought it highly likely that he was Scum… Also you ignore the fact that I was calling his action of posting the won condition anti-Town > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > [@special ed](#): > > > > Handshake failure: > > > > 1. Not a pool of confirmed Town players = Neutral > > Wrong. A handshake failure does indeed not create a pool of confirmed town players. But it also hands scum plenty of information about the people who played along. Especially now that you’ve handed them a complete vanilla town PM to compare against those who posted. You were _assuming_ they had one. Now it’s certain. Anti-town, pro scum. So, what, wait..now handing the Scum the Vanilla Role PM is bad? We’ve already determined that handshaking wasn’t going to happen. What exactly is the value of having that information hidden? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/829 "2010-08-18T04:22:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’d just like to reiterate here that I never recommended or called for a mass name-claim. I called for a mass hash-claim, which does not have most of the drawbacks (so far as I can tell, none of the drawbacks, if it’s implemented correctly) of a name-claim but which has some of the same benefits. Yes, and I mis understood that. hashing isn’t really a strength of mine > [@Chronos](#): > > **Ed** , you say that you accidentally outed yourself as vanilla. But you also say that handshaking is something that you routinely do. If you’re so experienced at handshaking, then you should know that a non-vanilla handshake doesn’t work, and that therefore, any handshake is an implicit claim of vanilla. You knowingly and deliberately offered a handshake, and therefore, you deliberately claimed vanilla. One might argue that, given the possibility that a handshake might work, it was worth the small amount of information it gives Scum, but that’s not what you’re arguing. Rather, you’re arguing that you accidentally outed yourself, and that’s just not so. Non-Vanilla handshakes \*\*do \*\*work, but not when you include the powers section. That was my error. That is what outed me as Vanilla. > [@Chronos](#): > > I’m also wondering about this: > > > [@](#): > > > > Though, it’s remarkable how the two of them [Chronos and **peeker**] are in a similar situation from my point of view (both non-Vanilla) > > First of all, I’m definitely non-vanilla, but there’s no indication whatsoever about **peeker**. Just because he hasn’t claimed to have any knowledge of the vanilla PM doesn’t mean he’s not vanilla. In fact, not claiming any knowledge of the vanilla PM is the correct play, since to do otherwise would be an unprovoked claim. Second, even if you do think us both non-vanilla, what’s so remarkable about that? I mean, you should never vote for anyone unless you think that there’s a good chance they’re non-vanilla. Third, you’re basically voting for him because you think there’s evidence that he hasn’t seen the vanilla PM. But you also think that the handshaking failed to prove anything, which implies that you also think that the Scum have seen the vanilla PM. So the only people who wouldn’t have seen it would be Town power roles, which effectively means that you’re voting for **peeker** because you think he’s a Town power role. because he’s indicated no knowledge of the Vanilla Role PM, he has indicated to me that he’s not Vanilla. Not really a difficult concept to wrap your head around. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/830 "2010-08-18T04:31:21Z")
Chronos, your concern is noted. Since it’s largely been me that’s struggling with the formatting, I’ll be extra careful with my formatting. > [@special ed](#): > > So, what, wait..now handing the Scum the Vanilla Role PM is bad? We’ve already determined that handshaking wasn’t going to happen. What exactly is the value of having that information hidden? Yes, it’s bad. Assuming you’re scum, you already had it anyway. But by posting it, you’re trying to convince us that you’re vanilla town. Or you could be a third faction that happens to have the PM. Your action did not help the town in any way right now, and you want to use it to ‘check’ against everyone’s posted handshake earlier. You’re trying to remind us that the handshake had some value, even as you distance yourself from it. > [@special ed](#): > > Because if he did have a section like that, then I thought it highly likely that he was Scum… That’s great. Except he posted a win condition identical to yours. And you called him scummy anyway. > [@Chronos](#): > > “You win when all threats to the Alliance of Light have been destroyed.” > [@special\_ed](#): > > You win when all threats to the Alliance of Light have been destroyed. That seems mighty shifty to me. Why the semantics of “I don’t have a win condition” when he matched you? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/831 "2010-08-18T04:45:26Z")
> [@special ed](#): > > What I was doing, and what I’ve repeatedly stated I was doing is to allow future verification if there is but one or more than 1 Vanilla Role PM. I see what you’re saying here. I think we were talking past each other for a while there. I believe the rest of my case against you stands, and I especially don’t like your justification for posting the vanilla town PM at all. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/832 "2010-08-18T04:51:15Z")
> [@](#): > > because he’s indicated no knowledge of the Vanilla Role PM, he has indicated to me that he’s not Vanilla. Not really a difficult concept to wrap your head around. No, he’s just indicated to you that he doesn’t want to give the Scum any extra information. A real vanilla who hasn’t already handshaked _shouldn’t_ indicate any knowledge of the vanilla PM. And you also haven’t explained just what you think he is, that he doesn’t have the vanilla PM, but is still somehow worth voting for. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/833 "2010-08-18T05:03:09Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Chronos, your concern is noted. Since it’s largely been me that’s struggling with the formatting, I’ll be extra careful with my formatting. > > > [@special ed](#): > > > > So, what, wait..now handing the Scum the Vanilla Role PM is bad? We’ve already determined that handshaking wasn’t going to happen. What exactly is the value of having that information hidden? > > Yes, it’s bad. Assuming you’re scum, you already had it anyway. But by posting it, you’re trying to convince us that you’re vanilla town. Or you could be a third faction that happens to have the PM. Your action did not help the town in any way right now, and you want to use it to ‘check’ against everyone’s posted handshake earlier. You’re trying to remind us that the handshake had some value, even as you distance yourself from it. Point 1. You state that I was attempting to convince you that I was Town by posting the Vanilla Role PM. Please indicate where I asserted that my posting of the Vanilla Role PM indicated Towniness. You will not find it. Your assertion is incorrect and tehrefore invalid. Point 2. I could be a third faction who has the role PM. True.From another Town player’s point of view, I could be anything. I’m not sure what could be indicates. I cannot defend against that Point 3. My action did not help Town right now. I agree. I didn’t say it would. Point 4. I wanted to use my positing of the Vanilla Role PM to check everyone’s handshake. This is incorrect. I never stated that. I posted it to provide the opportunity in the future to check if there is in fact just 1 or more than 1 Vanilla Role PMs. Point 5. You state that I’m attempting to remind everyone that the handshake has value. This is also false. I have admitted and continue to admit that it did not work in this game. Yes, I’ve contended that it can have value in other games, and it can. But we aren’t playing other games. We are playing this game. This is fun. I wonder how many new ways you’ll find to be wrong and still use it to justify your vote for me. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > That’s great. Except he posted a win condition identical to yours. And you called him scummy anyway. > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > You win when all threats to the Alliance of Light have been destroyed. Yes, but we’ve already determined that the handshaking was worthless, yes? So his having the Town win condition means…oh yeah, nothing. I felt like his attempt to encourage (albeit subtly) was Scummy. I didn’t realize he was encouraging a hash reveal and I’m still not firm on my understanding of that. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > That seems mighty shifty to me. Why the semantics of “I don’t have a win condition” when he matched you? Oh good lord, really? are we still really back here? Shit, this is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/834 "2010-08-18T05:10:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > because he’s indicated no knowledge of the Vanilla Role PM, he has indicated to me that he’s not Vanilla. Not really a difficult concept to wrap your head around. > > No, he’s just indicated to you that he doesn’t want to give the Scum any extra information. A real vanilla who hasn’t already handshaked _shouldn’t_ indicate any knowledge of the vanilla PM. And you also haven’t explained just what you think he is, that he doesn’t have the vanilla PM, but is still somehow worth voting for. Maybe I’m over thinking things, but in this post, you don’t see peeker admitting that he doesn’t have access to the Vanilla Role PM? > [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > I was outed as a Vanilla by my error, very different from an unprovoked claim. > > i call bullshit. if scum were provided a vt pm then your ploy was perfect. and unless you were scum you wouldn’t know what a vt pm looks like. with **maha** , **sach** and **story** providing guidance you would also run the risk of it being a **story** everyone is different situation. but it feels like you knew what a vt pm would look like and attempted this lame ass handshake shit (which i personally abhore so factor that in as well). that’s enough for me. > > **vote ed** Now, I am making the leap that the PM, as I’ve posted it, is probably not personalized. It’s not a huge leap for me. I think that if it were personalized, then, well, then maybe there would be some personalization in it. I really don’t see it. It could apply equally well to Merry or to Glorfindel. So, yeah, I think peeker isn’t Vanilla…and, I think he’s trying to play a new style as Scum. And going overboard with it. He knows I had figured out his earlier Scum tell (just read Day 5 of NSFW on Giraffe. You’ll find it on page 6 in the dungeon.) I outed him as Scum in that game based on his style of being helpful and coherent. I think he’s overcompensating for that in this game. It’s metagamey as hell, yes, but it’s what I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/835 "2010-08-18T05:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Point 1. You state that I was attempting to convince you that I was Town by posting the Vanilla Role PM. Please indicate where I asserted that my posting of the Vanilla Role PM indicated Towniness. You will not find it. Your assertion is incorrect and tehrefore invalid. _Then why did you do it?_ You dance and you dance and you dance around everyone’s questions. If you’re town, you posted it to help town. Only this doesn’t help town, and you admit it. > [@](#): > > Point 3. My action did not help Town right now. I agree. I didn’t say it would. _Why did you do it?_ And you can only defend against two of my points. I’m willing to concede the issue of handshakes to you, even if I’m not 100% on it. But how can you say > [@](#): > > This is fun. I wonder how many new ways you’ll find to be wrong and still use it to justify your vote for me. when you didn’t defend against 3/5ths of my points? This really does feel pointless. My vote stands. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/836 "2010-08-18T05:48:41Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > What exactly is the Scum motivation in my attempt to handshake again? Snipped majorly. That isn’t very hard to figure out. If we assume you are Scum, then clearly the scum were provided cover roles or at least a copy of the vanilla PM. Therefore you would know that the handshake would fail. However, actual Vanilla Town would not know that, and would attempt to participate. Those that failed the handshake, like Chronos, would be outted as non-vanilla, and everyone that successfully participated would obviously be vanilla and therefore could safely be ignored. In other words, you outted at least one power role in Chronos, and narrowed down the pool where other power roles could be. Both very strong scum motivations. I’m leaving my vote on Plankton, for now at least, because I think he’s the most scummy. However, I’m really starting to think that you and peeker are play fighting. You tried it with Meeko in C3, and it failed miserably. But you aren’t one to give up on something just because it failed once(right Mr. Asked to be a wolf again?). And let’s be honest, peeker is a far better choice than Meeko for that sort of play fighting. Meeko takes things personally, peeker does not. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/837 "2010-08-18T06:08:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe I’m over thinking things, but in this post, you don’t see peeker admitting that he doesn’t have access to the Vanilla Role PM? **peeker** in that post seems to be implying that a genuine vanilla wouldn’t know what the vanilla PM looks like. Which doesn’t make sense, no matter what **peeker** is: Of course the vanillas know what their own PM looks like. So that has to just be chalked up to “ **peeker** sometimes doesn’t make sense”, and is a complete null-tell. Even if we stipulate that **peeker** really doesn’t know what the vanilla PM looks like, you still haven’t explained how that means he’s worthy of a vote, given that (presumably) the only people who don’t know that are the Town power roles. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/838 "2010-08-18T06:15:44Z")
By the way, **special ed** , from post 829: > [@](#): > > Yes, and I mis understood that. hashing isn’t really a strength of mine When did you realize that you had misunderstood it? Because that was your stated reason for your vote on me, and your other reason for suspecting me, as I understand it, was your misunderstanding of my claim, not realizing that I knew what player had the role (a misunderstanding you also acknowledged). Mightn’t it have been nice to unvote me once you realized your reasons for suspicion were unwarranted, instead of waiting until you had some reason to vote for **peeker**? Or at least stating that your reasons for suspecting me no longer applied, in the post where you did unvote me? ---
**Author:** ![cucuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@cucuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cucuy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/839 "2010-08-18T06:35:33Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > This point keeps coming up, and I touched briefly on it at one point, but I want to say more on it now. > I was being flip. It’s how I am, and it’s how I talk. I realize now (and should have realized then) that there’s no place for flip talk in this game, because every word is dissected a dozen different ways. > > I made the statement statement “As far as I know, there are 22 different people in this game who want me dead.” Apparently, this is proof that I’m a Vigilante, because only a Vig would know for a fact that all the other players wanted him dead. Because obviously, if I were Scum I would say “there are probably slightly fewer than 20 people who want me dead”, or if I were Town I would have said “there are a handful of people who want me dead”, right?. A Vig is not necessarily a 3rd party. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > What I meant was “As far as I know, each and every one of the 22 other people in this game might be non-town, and therefore want me dead, if not now then before the end of this game”. It’s exactly the same thing that everyone else is thinking (at least, everyone who isn’t Scum/SK/Mason (because they would only think that of 22-[number of other Masons] people)). But that doesn’t quite roll off the tongue now, does it? That still doesn’t make sense. If you’re trying to say that there are certain people in the pool of 22 that want you dead, I will agree. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Frankly, it was a ‘slip of the tongue’. A poor choice of phrase that I was hoping would be forgotten as more important items surfaced for people to talk about. But since it’s not going away on its own, I felt compelled at this point to comment on it. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > While I think it would be a great idea to give me, and me only, multiple votes, I’m afraid that would go against my sense of fair play. Would 22 votes be enough? That was a cheap shot, and I apologize for taking it. Frankly your play has been erratic. I can’t see what the benefit is to town. ---
**Author:** ![cucuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@cucuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cucuy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/840 "2010-08-18T06:48:54Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Again I don’t see it: how would the hash of something that is the same for everyone be useful (as you get the same hash as well)? The hashes will not be the same; town and scum have different wincons. Likewise, 3rd party wincons. My comments are based on the premise that VT PMs are not word-for-word identical, except the wincons. And hashes could reveal that.\* \*Assuming they will work; I’ve never used them before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=43)