# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![cucuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@cucuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cucuy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/841 "2010-08-18T07:00:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On a completely separate subject, a thought just occurred to me: A Scum might try to exploit **Mahaloth** ’s strict enforcement of the vote formatting rules. For instance, suppose at the end of the Day that there’s a close race between Scum A and a townie. Scum B might vote for Scum A, but “accidentally” make a formatting error, and not notice it until after the deadline. In this way, B would get Town cred for having (tried to) vote for the Scum, but would also not put his teammate in any greater danger of a lynch. It’s a no-drawback bus vote. I think we need to keep an eye out for this, and be extra-vigilant with our own posts near the end of the Day to make sure we don’t make any genuine mistakes like this. If I may add: it seems people are having trouble with the nested quotes. Personally, I don’t care for them. But I don’t run this board. I’m having to double-back on posts because a) players are quoting posts with nested posts within, and after two nestings the quotes fall off and leave blank spaces, and b) players are snipping quotes but fail to remove the tags at the beginning of the nested quotes. This makes the quote attributed to the wrong person. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/842 "2010-08-18T07:27:26Z")
One more comment on **ed** ’s case against **peeker** : > [@](#): > > So, yeah, I think peeker isn’t Vanilla…and, I think he’s trying to play a new style as Scum. And going overboard with it. He knows I had figured out his earlier Scum tell (just read Day 5 of NSFW on Giraffe. You’ll find it on page 6 in the dungeon.) I outed him as Scum in that game based on his style of being helpful and coherent. I think he’s overcompensating for that in this game. It’s metagamey as hell, yes, but it’s what I believe. This amounts to “He’s not playing the same way he did when he was Scum, so I think he’s Scum”. Do I really have to explain why this is a bad argument? ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/843 "2010-08-18T08:25:47Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Except for the two times you admitted town lost after handshaking, right? Those were failures. I can accept that maybe you were referring to it failing at the beginning, as opposed to eventually leading to a town loss. But I’d appreciate some consistency on this handshaking business, consistency you’re not offering. > > Vote special ed There’s a whole lot about this that rubs me the wrong way. /snipped and bleached @ **Astral Rejection** , sorry to keep bugging you about your votes but one thing isn’t clear from this vote. Are you voting **Special Ed** because you think he’s scum, because he’s been causing an anti-town distraction with the handshaking thingy irrespective of his alignment, or because the handshake attempt may have given scum a tremendous advantage and there for was a pro-scum action irrespective of **special ed** ’s alignment? ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/844 "2010-08-18T10:08:34Z")
OK, I promised a careful study and some notes and stuff. But I just got home, and this thread is already longer than all of Harry Potter Mafia COMBINED. I hope you’re proud of yourselves. Notetaking has begun, but I don’t think I’ll be awake long enough to report tonight. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/845 "2010-08-18T12:23:18Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Point 1. You state that I was attempting to convince you that I was Town by posting the Vanilla Role PM. Please indicate where I asserted that my posting of the Vanilla Role PM indicated Towniness. You will not find it. Your assertion is incorrect and tehrefore invalid. > > _Then why did you do it?_ You dance and you dance and you dance around everyone’s questions. If you’re town, you posted it to help town. Only this doesn’t help town, and you admit it. > > _Why did you do it?_ > > And you can only defend against two of my points. I’m willing to concede the issue of handshakes to you, even if I’m not 100% on it. But how can you say > > > [@](#): > > > > This is fun. I wonder how many new ways you’ll find to be wrong and still use it to justify your vote for me. > > when you didn’t defend against 3/5ths of my points? This really does feel pointless. My vote stands. Why did I do it? OK, let me restate it again.This time I will use smaller words. Some players think there may be multiple (that means more than 1) Vanilla Role PMs. I believe this to be false. By posting my Vanilla role PM (at no cost because I am already outed as a Vanilla through my own errors and handshaking has failed) I can allow other Vanilla who are under lynch pressure to verify if their role PM matches mine. Is there some great benefit to this? Probably not, but it is still information and maybe it will be useful. Yes, there are some points I cannot defend. I may be 3rd party. I can understand someone who isn’t me having that stance. I could argue with you, but I cannot prove my alignment. Can anyone (aside from a mason at this point) prove their alignment? The other points I don’t argue as well. I did not immediately benefit the Town. Let me let you in on a little secret. Lots and lots of things have happened already that did not benefit the Town immediately. Are you really going to use that as a basis for voting? If so, let me ask you this. How has everything you’ve done immediately benefited Town? That’s really only 2. I think the other 3 points you made in that post were refuted. As well as everything in your initial vote against me. But if you want to take the stance that you are wrong but keeping your vote on me, that is your prerogative. (that means choice) ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/846 "2010-08-18T12:25:18Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > What exactly is the Scum motivation in my attempt to handshake again? > > Snipped majorly. > > That isn’t very hard to figure out. If we assume you are Scum, then clearly the scum were provided cover roles or at least a copy of the vanilla PM. Therefore you would know that the handshake would fail. However, actual Vanilla Town would not know that, and would attempt to participate. Those that failed the handshake, like Chronos, would be outted as non-vanilla, and everyone that successfully participated would obviously be vanilla and therefore could safely be ignored. In other words, you outted at least one power role in Chronos, and narrowed down the pool where other power roles could be. Both very strong scum motivations. Yes, I will concede that. My attempt at handshaking had a negative impact on the Town. > [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > I’m leaving my vote on Plankton, for now at least, because I think he’s the most scummy. However, I’m really starting to think that you and peeker are play fighting. You tried it with Meeko in C3, and it failed miserably. But you aren’t one to give up on something just because it failed once(right Mr. Asked to be a wolf again?). And let’s be honest, peeker is a far better choice than Meeko for that sort of play fighting. Meeko takes things personally, peeker does not. And I certainly learned my lesson from C3. And I’ll also agree with you on Meeko. He wanted to use our lynch to lynch me in that game. egad! ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/847 "2010-08-18T12:27:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > By the way, **special ed** , from post 829: > > > [@](#): > > > > Yes, and I mis understood that. hashing isn’t really a strength of mine > > When did you realize that you had misunderstood it? Because that was your stated reason for your vote on me, and your other reason for suspecting me, as I understand it, was your misunderstanding of my claim, not realizing that I knew what player had the role (a misunderstanding you also acknowledged). Mightn’t it have been nice to unvote me once you realized your reasons for suspicion were unwarranted, instead of waiting until you had some reason to vote for **peeker**? Or at least stating that your reasons for suspecting me no longer applied, in the post where you did unvote me? I suppose it might have been polite for me to unvote you. I didn’t. I did wait until I had decided on who to vote for. Is that a Scum tell too now? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/848 "2010-08-18T12:29:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One more comment on **ed** ’s case against **peeker** : > > > [@](#): > > > > So, yeah, I think peeker isn’t Vanilla…and, I think he’s trying to play a new style as Scum. And going overboard with it. He knows I had figured out his earlier Scum tell (just read Day 5 of NSFW on Giraffe. You’ll find it on page 6 in the dungeon.) I outed him as Scum in that game based on his style of being helpful and coherent. I think he’s overcompensating for that in this game. It’s metagamey as hell, yes, but it’s what I believe. > > This amounts to “He’s not playing the same way he did when he was Scum, so I think he’s Scum”. Do I really have to explain why this is a bad argument? Oh, look! While I was catching up you discovered my reason for voting. Yeah, it’s not great. I never said it was the most stellar reason for voting in a game ever. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/849 "2010-08-18T12:34:49Z")
_sigh_ Yet again, I seem to have forgotten this boards penchant for lynch the loud. We do do that a lot here, don’t we. Maybe the 7th time will be the charm Reasons matter less. Logic matters less. Volume matters more. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/850 "2010-08-18T12:51:12Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Reasons matter less. Logic matters less. Volume matters more. When you’re justification for trying to lynch peeker is his increased volume (which I don’t notice, perhaps it’s just been a while since you played with him), these sort of bleats look disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/851 "2010-08-18T12:56:03Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > _sigh_ Yet again, I seem to have forgotten this boards penchant for lynch the loud. We do do that a lot here, don’t we. Maybe the 7th time will be the charm > > Reasons matter less. Logic matters less. Volume matters more. Well, even if you’re Town, you’ll admit your logic hasn’t resulted in the best outcomes. And while your stated reasons for the handshake were pro-Town, there are also pro-Scum reasons for attempting it as well, depending on the facts we’re working with. I’m on the fence about whether or not to switch my vote to you at this point. My Day One hunches have lately been correct, and I have a very strong hunch about **USCDiver** , but I think that your gambit seems more consistent with a Scum perspective than a Town one. Because let’s face it, no matter what your alignment, the Scum gained a whole freakin’ lot out of this discussion, and I can’t really see right now that the Town got anything in return. I’m not even sure it’s worth it even if you’re Scum and you die toDay. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/852 "2010-08-18T13:09:02Z")
Vote Count: Chronos(1): Specialed, Astralrejection Suburban(8): Telcontar, RedSkeezix, Hoopy, Oredigger, Pleonast, Cucuy, Chipacabra, Nanook USCDiver(2): Drainbead, Gadarene Peeker(2): Suburban, Natlaw, SpecialEd Astral(3): OneandOnly, USCDiver, Nanook Pleonast(2): Meeko, Suburban SpecialEd(1): Peeker That’s 19 votes and 4 non-votes. Our rather long Day One ends tomorrow at Noon. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/853 "2010-08-18T13:35:33Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Vote Count: > Chronos(1): Specialed, Astralrejection > > Suburban(8): Telcontar, RedSkeezix, Hoopy, Oredigger, Pleonast, Cucuy, Chipacabra, Nanook > > USCDiver(2): Drainbead, Gadarene > > Peeker(2): Suburban, Natlaw, SpecialEd > > Astral(3): OneandOnly, USCDiver, Nanook > > Pleonast(2): Meeko, Suburban > > SpecialEd(1): Peeker > > That’s 19 votes and 4 non-votes. Our rather long Day One ends tomorrow at Noon. Is this correct? Do **Suburban** and **Special Ed** have 2 votes each? Was **Astral** ’s vote on **Special Ed** (#823) redirected to **Chronos**? Was **Chronos** ’ vote on **Peeker** #(824) not valid? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/854 "2010-08-18T13:47:10Z")
ok, i am effectively taking myself out of time out since the mod has posted. **ed** i have never said whether or not i am vanilla or not. i think to do so unwise at this time. i understand what you were attempting to do with the “handshake”. i think it was a poor play and could just as well be made by a scum **ed** as a niller **ed**. and i don’t want to berate you too harshly but if you are niller and scum have a copy of the niller pm (if in fact they are similar and they in fact have a copy - both leaps of assumption on my part) then i see nothing beneficial in that nonsense and that is why i did not play along and why you are currently getting my vote. or they are all personalized in which case this whole “handshake” nonsense was even less likely to have any benefit to town. note to self: add to list of stuff not to do. attempt to “handshake”. back in a bit because at least other folks are starting to pick it up a bit. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/855 "2010-08-18T13:56:34Z")
Oops, sorry. **@ Mahaloth, is the vote count correct? Do Suburban and Special Ed have 2 votes each? Was Astral’s vote on Special Ed (#823) redirected to Chronos? Was Chronos’ vote on Peeker #(824) not valid?** ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/856 "2010-08-18T14:03:04Z")
ok, and i just have to add this because it impacts me directly. **ed** posts in a very similar way to me. that is we can be a little snarky and very indirect in our attempts at humor/information ferreting out/advancing ideas, etc. i think that should be a null tell. and **ed** has clearly advanced a cause that even he admits, currently, was a poor play. but does anti town equate to scum? i see a ton of scum motivation in his play but need to reread just to make sure. **unvote all** **mod question: can we get an official vote count at this point, please. because the last post doesn’t seem to reflect current game state.** ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/857 "2010-08-18T14:09:04Z")
It’s funny. i was planning to post my worries about special ed at the end of the day - before the recent string of posts I thought there was some chance that the scum would NK him if he were town and that was more likely if we had this talk tomorrow - but then I saw the most recent updates. My concern for Ed is this. Attempting to handshake while including the powers section was bloody stupid. Full stop. It needlessly causes trouble for town power roles. Worse for Ed, it predictably causes trouble for town power roles, so he really really should have known not to do it. Especially That’s why, seeing what was going on with Chronos, I switched to Sauron and his minions. Sadly that part is personalized (I think we’ve seen counts of 1-3 mentions). Ed was snarky, irrelevant, and downright hostile in his pursuit of the handshake, even as it caused trouble for town. He also never answered my question of “what is your final section,” which was in part aimed at making him realize that he was counting the Powers. So, that’s bad. There actually was more. By posting his version of the vanilla PM (if he’s scum, we can assume it was provided) and asking dying town to confirm whether we match, he beings to test whether any variation from his PM indicates power roles. I have reason to believe it does not.\* I see definite scum motivation in what he’s doing, but not comparable town motivation. My vote is staying on suburban for today but, if i had a second vote, it would be on ed. Note that peeker’s question to the mod serves the same purpose as ed’s PM post. Also, ed, peeker: think before you post. Yes, both of you. you’re filling the thread with useless drivel, making snarky comments rather than responding to questions, and causing damage to town with your ill thought out ploys. Between the two of you, you make up about a quarter the volume of the thread, and your content doesn’t justify that. - My PM omits the sentence “You will not stop until Sauron and his minions are destroyed” and doesn’t mention family and loved ones, but is otherwise nearly identical to his. I guess my character is a loner who doesn’t get a happy ending. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/858 "2010-08-18T14:12:07Z")
With ~24 hours left in the day and a clear vote leader, It’s past time for suburban to make a claim (unless I’ve missed it somewhere, if so could someone link me to it there’s \> 850 posts already). ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/859 "2010-08-18T14:22:31Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > Note that peeker’s question to the mod serves the same purpose as ed’s PM post. Also, ed, peeker: think before you post. Yes, both of you. you’re filling the thread with useless drivel, making snarky comments rather than responding to questions, and causing damage to town with your ill thought out ploys. Between the two of you, you make up about a quarter the volume of the thread, and your content doesn’t justify that. > > - My PM omits the sentence “You will not stop until Sauron and his minions are destroyed” and doesn’t mention family and loved ones, but is otherwise nearly identical to his. I guess my character is a loner who doesn’t get a happy ending. \ the question about the accuracy of the vote count because **guiri** questioned it before me (cross post)? i think that would be highly informative from a town standpoint. i mean is it an administrative error or a function of the game? the fact that i have three names lined up after me but only have a count of (2) and the fact that others have their names listed multiple times means a hell of a lot. and for fuck’s sake before someone chimes in with you are doing scum’s homework for them it doesn’t take a fracking genius to see it. and why in the world did you include that last bit of information? jeebus. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/860 "2010-08-18T14:27:55Z")
and you can take this as you will, especially coming from unca **peek**. can folks please stop quoting portions of their pms or adding that a portion is worded differently or omitted entirely? this really is not helpful to town at all. it merely gives scum a clearer road map to traverse. additionally, it is a perfectly scum motivated ploy to make you look townier. unless you are on the block it is highly questionable strategy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=44)