# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/901 "2010-08-18T17:24:06Z")
I’m reposting my question to **Chronos** so it doesn’t get lost at the end of a page. **Chronos** , you claim to be a town power role. Does the structure of your role PM roughly match what **Suburban** posted? No need to give any details beyond a “yes” or “no,” of course. (Because it’s pretty damn different from the vanilla PM posted by **Ed** , particularly in ways you wouldn’t necessarily expect it to be – such as the fact that the wincon comes before the Powers section, and not after.) > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Morning all… > > I was going to post this before going to bed last night so you could all digest it early this morning, but we had a server crash (I’m a SysAdmin) and I wound up working all night instead, and have just woken up. Anyway… > > > [@](#): > > > > You are Denethor. > > > > You are a member of the Alliance of Light. > > > > You have seen Sauron’s burning eye through your Palantir and know all of Middle-earth will be destroyed. You have little hope and little control over your fate, it is only a matter of time until the advance of Darkness will be seen and feared by all. > > > > You win when all threats to the Alliance of Light have been destroyed. > > > > Powers: > > > > 1. You have a Palantir. You must use it during the Night to watch one other player in the game and will learn if they are a Servant of Darkness or not. PM Mahaloth the name of the player you will watch in the Palantir. > > > > 2. If you find a Servant of Darkness through your Palantir, you know Middle-earth is doomed. You must claim in your first post that Day and will no longer be able to use the Palantir afterward. It would be a futile endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/902 "2010-08-18T17:27:37Z")
because i am trying to figure out based on the additional interaction whether he just made a bone headed town play or a very ballsy scum play. it’s kind of wifom for me at this point. although i lean towards the ballsy scum play at this point. wifom, btw **pleo** stands for wine in front of me. it refers to the princess bride stuff that has been discussed at length in other games. just to let you know. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/903 "2010-08-18T17:27:39Z")
Also, #2 of **Suburban’s** listed Powers doesn’t make a hell of a lot of sense to me, either logically as a game mechanism (why would discovering a Servant of Darkness mean that Middle-earth is doomed?) or as a separate power (rather than a limitation to the Palantir). Anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/904 "2010-08-18T17:33:49Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Also, #2 of **Suburban’s** listed Powers doesn’t make a hell of a lot of sense to me, either logically as a game mechanism (why would discovering a Servant of Darkness mean that Middle-earth is doomed?) or as a separate power (rather than a limitation to the Palantir). > > Anyone else? The second power made a lot of sense to me, given Denethor’s character and history. Denethor used his Palantir to spy on Sauron’s preparations, and got caught; for Sauron _also_ had a Palantir. Sauron was able to lead Denethor into despair. Eventually Denethor committed suicide, leaving his sick son (Faramir, wounded and poisoned by the Black Breath) to inherit his post. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/905 "2010-08-18T17:34:38Z")
> [@cucuy](#): > > > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > > > While I think it would be a great idea to give me, and me only, multiple votes, I’m afraid that would go against my sense of fair play. > > Would 22 votes be enough? > > That was a cheap shot, and I apologize for taking it. > > Frankly your play has been erratic. I can’t see what the benefit is to town. It may have been a cheap shot, but I probably deserved it, and it made me chuckle 🙂 > [@special\_ed](#): > > Yes, there are some points I cannot defend. I may be 3rd party. I can understand someone who isn’t me having that stance. I could argue with you, but I cannot prove my alignment. Can anyone (aside from a mason at this point) prove their alignment? **Nobody** can independently prove their alignment at this point, even a Mason. Masons would require confirmation from other Masons and/or to be killed before anything would be proven. > [@Chronos](#): > > On another note, **Suburban Plankton** ’s play is really poor right now. You think that **Pleonast** has an evil scheme to keep re-enforcing his power role claim and keep it in our minds, so to combat that, you re-enforce his power role claim and keep it in our minds? I don’t think it works that way. No, I though that Pleonast had an evil scheme to implant an idea in our minds such that we would forget where it came from and assume it to be true (despite the complete lack of evidence), and to combat that, I brought my concerns to light so that they could be addressed. Since nobody else seems inclined to do so, I’ll have to consider the possibility that I’m just seeing shadows. I’m still trying to parse through all of the content from last night/this morning, so I’m not changing my vote at the moment. **Mahaloth, Day 1 ends at noon Eastern Time (GMT-4) tomorrow ,correct?** ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/906 "2010-08-18T17:40:12Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > Also, #2 of **Suburban’s** listed Powers doesn’t make a hell of a lot of sense to me, either logically as a game mechanism (why would discovering a Servant of Darkness mean that Middle-earth is doomed?) or as a separate power (rather than a limitation to the Palantir). > > > > Anyone else? > > The second power made a lot of sense to me, given Denethor’s character and history. > > Denethor used his Palantir to spy on Sauron’s preparations, and got caught; for Sauron _also_ had a Palantir. Sauron was able to lead Denethor into despair. Eventually Denethor committed suicide, leaving his sick son (Faramir, wounded and poisoned by the Black Breath) to inherit his post. I guess I wasn’t clear enough: **How is it a “Power”?** Why would it be deserving of a separate bullet point in the Powers section, as opposed to a second sentence in the first bullet point? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/907 "2010-08-18T17:41:21Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > Also, #2 of **Suburban’s** listed Powers doesn’t make a hell of a lot of sense to me, either logically as a game mechanism (why would discovering a Servant of Darkness mean that Middle-earth is doomed?) or as a separate power (rather than a limitation to the Palantir). > > > > Anyone else? > > The second power made a lot of sense to me, given Denethor’s character and history. > > Denethor used his Palantir to spy on Sauron’s preparations, and got caught; for Sauron _also_ had a Palantir. Sauron was able to lead Denethor into despair. Eventually Denethor committed suicide, leaving his sick son (Faramir, wounded and poisoned by the Black Breath) to inherit his post. Yes, I think the power makes sense given the canon. That being said, it seems to me that’s two Powers in the game that are sort of ‘handicapped’. I have an alignment sensing power, but it will only work to a point, and then is null. \*\*Chronos \*\*has a role sensing power, but it is limited to a single player. Maybe someone who has more experience with Mafia games can say whether or not that is unusual. It seems so to me, but I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/908 "2010-08-18T17:46:17Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Also, #2 of **Suburban’s** listed Powers doesn’t make a hell of a lot of sense to me, either logically as a game mechanism (why would discovering a Servant of Darkness mean that Middle-earth is doomed?) or as a separate power (rather than a limitation to the Palantir). > > Anyone else? As a game mechanism, an alignment investigator who loses their investigative power after finding scum is quite reasonable. Whether that role is defined as one power with a limitation or two related powers is a matter of the designer’s thinking. Personally, I would split it up into two, since not only does their first power fail, but they must also “claim”\*. Your question “why would discovering a Servant of Darkness mean that Middle-earth is doomed” is simply one of the game’s color. I don’t expect color to have any particular consistency or meaning. The “palantir” is apparently just color used to describe the powers. \*This is probably the most problematic part of the role. What does “claiming” require? Could the player get away with a plain “I claim” and no further details? Must they state their role name? Must they describe their powers? Must they give their results? It’s too vague. Yet another example of why post restrictions make poor rules. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/909 "2010-08-18T17:53:12Z")
Quoth **Gadarene** : > [@](#): > > Chronos, you claim to be a town power role. Does the structure of your role PM roughly match what Suburban posted? No need to give any details beyond a “yes” or “no,” of course. > > (Because it’s pretty damn different from the vanilla PM posted by Ed, particularly in ways you wouldn’t necessarily expect it to be – such as the fact that the wincon comes before the Powers section, and not after.) This is a good point. I hadn’t noticed any stylistic differences, but I just double-checked my PM, and my win condition comes after my powers section, not before. It’s not damning, but it does make the claim a little more suspect. **Pleonast** , I’m still really not seeing **MHaye** ’s “SAHM” as a Scum tell. What, do you think the Scum would be sitting around on their board and saying “Hey, what should we call ourselves? I know, let’s be ‘Sauron and his Minions’, or SAHM for short!”? Because I’ve never seen nor heard of Scum worrying about what to call themselves. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/910 "2010-08-18T17:54:56Z")
I want to see Chronos’ response to the question at hand before I change votes. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/911 "2010-08-18T17:59:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Gadarene** : > > > [@](#): > > > > Chronos, you claim to be a town power role. Does the structure of your role PM roughly match what Suburban posted? No need to give any details beyond a “yes” or “no,” of course. > > > > (Because it’s pretty damn different from the vanilla PM posted by Ed, particularly in ways you wouldn’t necessarily expect it to be – such as the fact that the wincon comes before the Powers section, and not after.) > > This is a good point. I hadn’t noticed any stylistic differences, but I just double-checked my PM, and my win condition comes after my powers section, not before. It’s not damning, but it does make the claim a little more suspect. > > **Pleonast** , I’m still really not seeing **MHaye** ’s “SAHM” as a Scum tell. What, do you think the Scum would be sitting around on their board and saying “Hey, what should we call ourselves? I know, let’s be ‘Sauron and his Minions’, or SAHM for short!”? Because I’ve never seen nor heard of Scum worrying about what to call themselves. **Question for all:** Does anyone else have a win condition that comes before their Powers section? I don’t see any harm in asking this question, because it’s already been established that (a) vanilla Role PMs have a Powers section – see **Ed’s** sample PM, among other things – and (b) at least one claimed Town power role ( **Chronos** ) has his win condition in a different place than **Suburban**. (As for me, my win condition comes after my Powers section.) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/912 "2010-08-18T17:59:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This is a good point. I hadn’t noticed any stylistic differences, but I just double-checked my PM, and my win condition comes after my powers section, not before. It’s not damning, but it does make the claim a little more suspect. I agree with this completely. > [@](#): > > **Pleonast** , I’m still really not seeing **MHaye** ’s “SAHM” as a Scum tell. What, do you think the Scum would be sitting around on their board and saying “Hey, what should we call ourselves? I know, let’s be ‘Sauron and his Minions’, or SAHM for short!”? Because I’ve never seen nor heard of Scum worrying about what to call themselves. I’ve already answered this question when **DrainBead** asked it. **MHaye** told us why he used the acronym (because he doesn’t like to use “scum”), which applies whatever his alignment is. My suspicion is based on how he used it. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/913 "2010-08-18T18:03:47Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > **Mahaloth, Day 1 ends at noon Eastern Time (GMT-4) tomorrow ,correct?** Well, DST, actually. We’re on Daylight Savings, but I still say Eastern. Here, for help, I’ll tell you that it is now 2:03 PM or so by the “moderator” clock. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/914 "2010-08-18T18:07:31Z")
You mean EDT. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/915 "2010-08-18T18:09:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > This is a good point. I hadn’t noticed any stylistic differences, but I just double-checked my PM, and my win condition comes after my powers section, not before. It’s not damning, but it does make the claim a little more suspect. > > I agree with this completely. That’s right; I’d forgotten that **Pleo** had claimed a town power role as well. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/916 "2010-08-18T18:16:02Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > That’s right; I’d forgotten that **Pleo** had claimed a town power role as well. Drats! My evil plan is not working! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/917 "2010-08-18T18:17:00Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Quoth **Gadarene** :This is a good point. I hadn’t noticed any stylistic differences, but I just double-checked my PM, and my win condition comes after my powers section, not before. It’s not damning, but it does make the claim a little more suspect. > > > > **Pleonast** , I’m still really not seeing **MHaye** ’s “SAHM” as a Scum tell. What, do you think the Scum would be sitting around on their board and saying “Hey, what should we call ourselves? I know, let’s be ‘Sauron and his Minions’, or SAHM for short!”? Because I’ve never seen nor heard of Scum worrying about what to call themselves. > > **Question for all:** Does anyone else have a win condition that comes before their Powers section? > > I don’t see any harm in asking this question, because it’s already been established that (a) vanilla Role PMs have a Powers section – see **Ed’s** sample PM, among other things – and (b) at least one claimed Town power role ( **Chronos** ) has his win condition in a different place than **Suburban**. > > (As for me, my win condition comes after my Powers section.) **arrgghh** ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/918 "2010-08-18T18:29:02Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > (As for me, my win condition comes after my Powers section.) :smack: Guys, please stop revealing more information about your role PMs. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/919 "2010-08-18T18:36:12Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > (As for me, my win condition comes after my Powers section.) > > :smack: Guys, please stop revealing more information about your role PMs. Ummm…if it exposes **Suburban** as a false role claim, the possibility of giving scum more information\* is a risk I’m perfectly willing to take. \*Leaving aside the fact that it _doesn’t_ give scum appreciably more information, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/920 "2010-08-18T18:40:38Z")
I don’t understand teh argghh or the smack either. Nothing that is being revealed exposes a power role(since every indication is that the Vanilla Pm has a powers section), and since we’ve already had at least one supposed vanilla role posted, there’s nothing in it that would give anything away. My win condition is also after the Powers section, and as such I don’t feel any need to move my vote. That “claim” smacks of a desperation hail mary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=47)