# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/921 "2010-08-18T18:44:41Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Ummm…if it exposes **Suburban** as a false role claim, the possibility of giving scum more information\* is a risk I’m perfectly willing to take. > > \*Leaving aside the fact that it _doesn’t_ give scum appreciably more information, of course. I’m just jumpy about all of these claims. Yours is just one in a long list of them. I find them all suspicious, but yours is less suspicious than some. I’m convinced some of these claims have to be scum trying to lead discussion astray. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/922 "2010-08-18T18:48:19Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > Ummm…if it exposes **Suburban** as a false role claim, the possibility of giving scum more information\* is a risk I’m perfectly willing to take. > > > > \*Leaving aside the fact that it _doesn’t_ give scum appreciably more information, of course. > > I’m just jumpy about all of these claims. Yours is just one in a long list of them. I find them all suspicious, but yours is less suspicious than some. I’m convinced some of these claims have to be scum trying to lead discussion astray. So, clearly, the claim\* that actually exposes an inconsistency is the one you find suspicious. 🙂 \*Pretty sure I’m not “claiming” anything here that I haven’t claimed before. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/923 "2010-08-18T18:50:44Z")
My PM has the the order where the wincondition comes after the Powers section. The more I think about it, the more likely it is the SP is faking it. The delay until someone asks for a claim, the possibility that if he has powers in addition to being scum his faked role would allow him to sacrifice a lesser powered or unpowered scum player to help partially confirm his role. It’s possible that he’s come up with a mechanism to downplay the downsides of a false cop claim, ie that he has to produce results. At this point, I can’t think of anyone who’s play has been scummier in my eyes than Suburban Plankton. \*\* vote: Suburban Plankton\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/924 "2010-08-18T18:53:23Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > > I’m just jumpy about all of these claims. Yours is just one in a long list of them. I find them all suspicious, but yours is less suspicious than some. I’m convinced some of these claims have to be scum trying to lead discussion astray. > > So, clearly, the claim\* that actually exposes an inconsistency is the one you find suspicious. 🙂 > \*Pretty sure I’m not “claiming” anything here that I haven’t claimed before. Yeah, sorry. 🙂 I saw more explicit PM talk and I reflexively thought “not this again!” ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/925 "2010-08-18T19:05:53Z")
Some thoughts on Suburban Plankton: Given that his win condition placement differs from Gadarene, Red Skeezix, and Chronos, I see a few possibilities. 1. some Town Power roles have the win condition before the powers. 2. SP is scum and invented a role in which the win condition comes before the powers The fact that Chronos’ PM doesn’t confirm him is the most interesting, but we still have no true proof that Chronos is actually legit. Either one of them is lying (and therefore scum), or Mahaloth varied up the power PMs. I guess they could both be lying, but I find that unlikely. Therefore, we might have netted ourselves scum within the pair of them. Or we might not have. Based on SP’s claimed power, I’d suggest letting him live for a day or two to gather evidence, and then lynching him. We can then corroborate or disregard his evidence as needed. Are there any obvious flaws in this plan? Did I miss something obvious? It’s happened before in this game 🙂 In the meantime, I’m still very happy with my vote for Ed. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/926 "2010-08-18T19:20:44Z")
Hmmm…I’m wary about lynching a claimed dick on Day 1, even if the claim seems a bit off, not the least of which is my win con also comes after my powers. For now I’ll **unvote suburban plankton**. The problem is, he could be the Godfather hoping to get a counterclaimed detective. (After all, once the godfather is dead, any detective investigations for confirming town are sound, assuming we don’t have insane detectives or such.) So trading a Godfather for the detective is not a bad deal for scum if the Godfather seems to be swinging anyway. (For that matter, trading any role for a detective isn’t taht bad for scum.) Or he could be a godfather hoping that a full-detective investigates him and sees that he’s town. Regardless of any of that (or any other possible scenario of what he actually is), any town detectives should not investigate him. He’s made a claim, and now he has to be consistent with that claim. For those who are still voting him, though, do you really think the fact that his PM is different justifies lynching a claimed detective? We’ve seen people get lynched for differing PM’s in the past, when it was simply an issue of mods changing things up in PMs. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/927 "2010-08-18T19:21:53Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Either one of them is lying (and therefore scum), or Mahaloth varied up the power PMs. I guess they could both be lying, but I find that unlikely. > > Therefore, we might have netted ourselves scum within the pair of them. Or we might not have. [snipped] That’s some helpful analysis you got there. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/928 "2010-08-18T19:27:05Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > > Either one of them is lying (and therefore scum), or Mahaloth varied up the power PMs. I guess they could both be lying, but I find that unlikely. > > > > Therefore, we might have netted ourselves scum within the pair of them. Or we might not have. > > [snipped] > > That’s some helpful analysis you got there. 🙂 You know what I meant. 🙂 It’s inconclusive right now, and in further sentences I elaborate what I think we should do about it. Let him do his thing, report back each day, and then we lynch him to corroborate. He should agree to this plan if he’s town, because his death will help town quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/929 "2010-08-18T19:32:59Z")
NETA: The only reason I’m suggesting we lynch him eventually instead of, say, waiting for a Night Kill is that the scum likely won’t night kill him. They’d probably rather we waste a lynch to confirm or discard what he’s told us, because they know we can’t truly trust him as things stand. Of course, if he’s actually town, they might elect to night kill him before he can do his magic. Either way, I don’t believe the correct course of action is lynching him today. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/930 "2010-08-18T19:36:08Z")
**unvote suburban plankton** This isn’t a total acceptance that Suburban’s telling the truth, but I’ll come back to it. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/931 "2010-08-18T19:46:29Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > For those who are still voting him, though, do you really think the fact that his PM is different justifies lynching a claimed detective? We’ve seen people get lynched for differing PM’s in the past, when it was simply an issue of mods changing things up in PMs. I have some other issues with his role PM besides the placement of the wincon, to be honest. The prose style is a little clunkier than I’ve seen from **Mahaloth** so far (apologies if you actually did write it, **Maha** – everyone’s a critic!), particularly the following sentences: 1. “You have seen Sauron’s burning eye through your Palantir and know all of Middle-earth will be destroyed.” First, it seems strange to refer off-handedly to the Palantir like this, when it doesn’t get introduced until later in the PM. Second, there’s something about this sentence that just doesn’t click for me as an opening to a role PM. It’s got a much different tone than “You are truly frightened about a future controlled by Sauron,” which is how **Ed’s** sample PM begins. Third, and in a similar vein, this language (and the language in the next sentence) is so substantially different from **Ed’s** PM that it suggests that there are two completely different PM templates out there – up till now, everything pointed to there being slight variations on a single template. (I’d ask if anyone else has language about “Sauron’s burning eye” and “little hope and little control over your fate,” but I’m scared that **peeker** would arrggh at me again.) 1. “You have little hope and little control over your fate, it is only a matter of time until the advance of Darkness will be seen and feared by all.” First, same concerns about tone, clunkiness, and difference in language. Second, there should really be a semi-colon instead of a comma there, and **Mahaloth’s** PMs have been, as far as I can tell, impeccably constructed in that regard. (He appears to prefer straightforward declarative sentences anyhow.) Third, the phrase “it is only a matter of time until the advance of Darkness will be seen and feared by all” **really** pings me. It actually sounds like something that’s ripped directly from a scum’s role PM. 1. “You have a Palantir. You must use it during the Night to watch one other player in the game and will learn if they are a Servant of Darkness or not.” First, I find it weird that the PM doesn’t describe the Palantir at all. Like, I’d expect some short description about how it’s a “magical artifact that allows the user to see from afar” or some such (example description basically cribbed from Wikipedia). Second, I find the use of the word “must” REALLY strange – so he’s _forced_ to use the Palantir every night? What sense does that make? Third, while “Servants of Darkness” is how **Mahaloth** describes the baddies in his opening post, **Ed’s** sample PM – and my PM – use the phrase “Sauron and his minions” instead. “Servants of Darkness” sounds like something that’s more likely to appear in a scum PM. Another little thing, but it bugs. (Not to mention the fact that the OP talks about “Sauron and the Servants of Darkness,”\* so a Palantir that tells the user if a player is “a Servant of Darkness or not” would seem to exclude Sauron from its ambit. Fourth, the entire tone of the second sentence just seems off – the superfluous phrase “in the game,” the weird way that the grammar doesn’t quite track (“You must use it . . . and will learn”), and the way it ends with an equally superfluous “or not.” It just doesn’t sound as polished as **Mahaloth’s** writing style. Hell with it, I’m putting my money where my mouth is. **unvote USCDiver** **vote Suburban Plankton** \*Band name ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/932 "2010-08-18T19:50:36Z")
**Wanderers** , was 910 a simulpost, or was there something else you wanted my input on? There is a potential risk in other players saying whether their wincon comes before or after their powers. If there is only one vanilla PM, then anyone saying that their wincon comes before will be implicitly claiming a power role. Then again, if all of the real power roles have their wincon after, then it could catch a false claim. I don’t know what the best course of action is, here. In general, I’m in favor of giving claimed power roles the benefit of the doubt on Day 1, especially information-gathering roles. A claimed information-gathering role has to either lie or tell the truth, and either way can benefit Town: If he tells the truth, it gains us information, and if he lies, he runs the risk of getting caught from it. Of course, the information is unreliable, since we won’t necessarily catch all of the lies, but it’s something. I also see another argument for letting **Suburban** live for at least one Night: If we have any Watcher or Tracker type roles, he’d be a good target for them. I don’t know if we do or not, but I think there’s a good enough chance that there are that we should give them a chance to work. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/933 "2010-08-18T19:51:48Z")
NETA: Having gone over the Wikipedia article a little more: why would a Palantir necessarily be able to tell someone’s alignment, anyway? I’d expect a Palantir to give Watcher or Tracker-type powers, maybe, but using it for the Cop role seems kinda strange. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/934 "2010-08-18T19:57:46Z")
**Gadarene** , you might be right in your observations. The points you make do seem to be consistent with my PM, now that you point them out, though I’m not much one for textual criticism. Honestly, if I were tasked with comparing the authorship of two pieces of text, I’d go look up mathematical criteria for comparison, not strictly linguistic things. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/935 "2010-08-18T20:01:56Z")
> [@](#): > > NETA: Having gone over the Wikipedia article a little more: why would a Palantir necessarily be able to tell someone’s alignment, anyway? I’d expect a Palantir to give Watcher or Tracker-type powers, maybe, but using it for the Cop role seems kinda strange. The canon is vague on precisely what kinds of information a Palantir can reveal: All that’s really known is that what it shows is true (but may be spun to imply other things). In the stories, Denethor was driven mad because Sauron had some measure of control over which true things he saw, and made sure he saw only the bad news, none of the good news. And frankly, I can’t think of anything in the canon that would be a closer match for the Detective role: There’s not really anything equivalent to a Detect Evil spell. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/936 "2010-08-18T20:04:19Z")
The more I think about the phrase “in the game” in **Suburban’s** PM, the fishier it sounds. **Mahaloth’s** been really good about framing the mechanics and setup and stuff in exclusively in-universe terms except where it can’t be avoided – why would he throw an “in the game” in there? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/937 "2010-08-18T20:04:45Z")
These two statements are somewhat opposed to each other. According to Suburban Plankton, his role says that he knows middle earth will be destroyed and if he discovers a scum player with the palantir then he knows that middle earth will be destroyed. Doesn’t make sense. This reads to me like he took a scum cover role PM and edited it to draw out a cop claim. "You have seen Sauron’s burning eye through your Palantir and know all of Middle-earth will be destroyed. " "2. If you find a Servant of Darkness through your Palantir, you know Middle-earth is doomed. " ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/938 "2010-08-18T20:28:46Z")
I’m skimming at this point. I’ve lost the desire to try to use logic with some of you. I did see that Suburban claimed. Did anyone ask Chronos if his win condition comes before his powers? Or does it come after his powers like in the PM I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/939 "2010-08-18T20:29:56Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I’m skimming at this point. I’ve lost the desire to try to use logic with some of you. > > I did see that Suburban claimed. Did anyone ask Chronos if his win condition comes before his powers? Or does it come after his powers like in the PM I posted. Stop skimming. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/940 "2010-08-18T20:31:43Z")
I’ll help ya out, ed. His win condition comes after. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=48)