# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1021 "2010-08-18T22:56:55Z")
:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1022 "2010-08-18T23:03:38Z")
**Gadarene** , any content to go with that smiley? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1023 "2010-08-18T23:08:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Gadarene** , any content to go with that smiley? Well…as scummy as I found **Chip’s** post, I still think **Suburban** would be a far better lynch today. Having three leading lynch candidates makes it easier for scum to muddy the waters, since it won’t take as many of them to keep a scum from getting lynched and it makes bandwagon/vote-switching behavior less obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1024 "2010-08-18T23:11:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Chipacabra** : > > > [@](#): > > > > Also, I think that if Ed is scum, there’s a good chance that Suburban Plankton also is. If Ed is town, that does not absolve Suburban. > > That’s an argument for lynching **Plankton** instead of **Ed** , but you’re voting for **Ed**. And I don’t see any real connection between the cases on them: Could you spell it out? Ed is the safer first lynch, because if Ed is telling the truth and we lynch him, we lose a VT. If Plankton is telling the truth and we lynch him, we lose an investigator. By that token, I’m willing to give Plankton a little time. My thinking was if Ed is scum, he’s seen a VT role example and quite likely a cover story. So he knows a name that isn’t being used by the townies. So he slips it into the list of names, adding in a connection to the palantir to provide Plankton with a plausible cover. Basically, Ed being scum introduces the possibilty of him trying to rescue Plankton. This isn’t a guaranteed scenario, just a plausible one, hence it’s not enough to nail in Plankton’s coffin, so I only said ‘good chance’. And if Ed turns out town, then the whole scenario didn’t happen, which is basically just null for Plankton, since he could have gotten the cover name himself just as easily and added the palantir connection based on Ed’s list. So yes, Gadarene and Hoopy, it’s obvious that Plankton isn’t absolved if Ed is town. I say obvious things sometimes. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1025 "2010-08-18T23:13:06Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > the more i read that post the more it sounds like scum just playing it straight down the middle on a mislynch. now that certainly does not exonerate the other candidates, but let’s see if we get a leader under our belt. especially one that is playing on the low end of participation. kind of right where i would expect scum to try and hide. Seriously? I’m low participation? That’s what you’re going with? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1026 "2010-08-18T23:18:07Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > Ed is the safer first lynch, because if Ed is telling the truth and we lynch him, we lose a VT. If Plankton is telling the truth and we lynch him, we lose an investigator. By that token, I’m willing to give Plankton a little time. > > My thinking was if Ed is scum, he’s seen a VT role example and quite likely a cover story. So he knows a name that isn’t being used by the townies. So he slips it into the list of names, adding in a connection to the palantir to provide Plankton with a plausible cover. Basically, Ed being scum introduces the possibilty of him trying to rescue Plankton. in which post did **ed** link to the palantir? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1027 "2010-08-18T23:22:38Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > My thinking was if Ed is scum, he’s seen a VT role example and quite likely a cover story. So he knows a name that isn’t being used by the townies. So he slips it into the list of names, adding in a connection to the palantir to provide Plankton with a plausible cover. Basically, Ed being scum introduces the possibilty of him trying to rescue Plankton. Um, yeah, this isn’t what you said at all the first time around (as quoted in my response to you at #1006). ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1028 "2010-08-18T23:27:44Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > in which post did **ed** link to the palantir? 694, in his list of names he included a list of people who have held palantir. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1029 "2010-08-18T23:31:07Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > > [@Chipacabra](#): > > > > My thinking was if Ed is scum, he’s seen a VT role example and quite likely a cover story. So he knows a name that isn’t being used by the townies. So he slips it into the list of names, adding in a connection to the palantir to provide Plankton with a plausible cover. Basically, Ed being scum introduces the possibilty of him trying to rescue Plankton. > > Um, yeah, this isn’t what you said at all the first time around (as quoted in my response to you at #1006). I know. Sometimes I don’t say obvious things, too, especially when it’s only obvious to my own twisty ways of thinking and not to everyone else. Sorry about that. 😕 At the time that I had written that part of the post, I was still thinking of Ed as probably town. I hadn’t flipped yet. Keep in mind, I was going through the ENTIRE FREAKING THREAD IN ONE GO YOU WORDY BASTARDS.[/fakeanger] When I flipped to thinking of him as scum, I didn’t go back and edit that part of my post with my further thoughts. I should have, but at that point my brain wasn’t working in top gear anymore. I just wanted to get the post over and done with and I skipped a bunch of steps to put my conclusion out. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1030 "2010-08-18T23:47:27Z")
I still don’t really see the case for **Ed** as scum, but… _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1031 "2010-08-18T23:48:13Z")
thanks for the reference. i’ve got it now. because of some connection with the palantir and denethor that makes ed scum, because of his connection with plank, right? and i don’t think you have flipped yet. unless i missed something. ok, i am posting this and then coming back. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1032 "2010-08-19T00:01:54Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > thanks for the reference. > > i’ve got it now. because of some connection with the palantir and denethor that makes ed scum, because of his connection with plank, right? > > and i don’t think you have flipped yet. unless i missed something. > > ok, i am posting this and then coming back. No, that’s not why I think Ed is scum. I think Ed is scum primarily because of the ‘win condition’ trick question nonsense with Chronos, and because of the cries of lynch the loud when he wasn’t really being lynched and when the person being lynched wasn’t being loud. The Ed plankton connection is that I believe that if Ed is scum, there are scenarios where Ed’s behavior is to try to protect another scum. From what I have seen of previous games, Ed is too good of a player to make an obvious attempt to rescue a fellow scum in trouble. But posting that role list put the idea of denethor = palantir out there, on the chance that it makes Plankton’s claim more credible. The scenario does depend on Ed being scum. I believe that Ed is scum for other reasons, which is why I consider the scenario. That’s not the same as saying I believe Ed is scum BECAUSE I considered that scenario. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1033 "2010-08-19T00:06:22Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > I still don’t really see the case for **Ed** as scum, but… _shrug_ You don’t? Just look at what Astral has said. Here are the points I failed to refute: 1. Chronos posted a win condition identical to mine, and I still thought he was Scummy 2. It’s possible that I’m 3rd party 3. My posting of the Vanilla Role PM provided no immediate assistance to Town Now, the points that I’ve refuted he still seems to think are valid last I checked: 4. Posting the Vanilla Role PM was another attempt to handshake. (I’m not sure why he thinks so, I doubt anyone else does) 5. I think he may have failed to understand that I was trying to provide Town information that there was but one Vanilla Role PM despite what someone (Telcontar maybe, I forget) was alleging as fact. Also, the information gained would not be immediate, but at some probable point in the future. There were other points, like I was trying to prove I was Town by posting the Role PM and that I flip flopped back to thinking a handshake was valuable in this game. I’ve no idea where they came from, he really wasn’t able to substantiate those. However, was it MHaye, who brought up that had I been Scum, with access to the Vanilla Role PM, then it might make sense for me to attempt a handshake. I can see some validity in that. Unlike what others have specualted, my attempt wouldn’t be to pull off the handshake ( mean, without some counter action taken by the moderators, it would never have been a confirmed handshake anyway.), but to out the Vanillas through my attempt. I wish I had been that smart as Scum. Needless to say, any future atempts I make at handshaking will not involve parts of the role PM that can only be found in the Vanilla PM. So, Anyone who votes me for that reason, I really can’t counter. You only have my word that I erred in attempting my handshake and it ended up being anti-Town. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1034 "2010-08-19T00:19:24Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > No, that’s not why I think Ed is scum. I think Ed is scum primarily because of the ‘win condition’ trick question nonsense with Chronos, and because of the cries of lynch the loud when he wasn’t really being lynched and when the person being lynched wasn’t being loud. Really? Let’s look at the vote count and compare it with the post Count, shall we? Now, granted this is the entire post count for the thread, so it might be skewed a bit with players like Chip positng more recently than they had at that point. Does it look like this data might support an accusation that we were tending toward ‘lynch the loud’? \*\*Posts/ Name/ Votes \*\* 167 Peeker (2): 147 SpecialEd(3): 110 Gadarene 72 Chronos (1) 53 Suburban(8): 53 Pleonast(2): 47 HoopyFrood 47 Astral(2): 44 Red Skeezix 26 Telcontar 25 Meeko 24 Chipacabra 21 USCDiver(2): 21 Cucuy 19 Guiri 18 MHaye 17 OneandOnly 16 Normal Phase/Inner Stickler 12 Drain Bead 11 Natlaw 9 Oredigger 8 NanooktheNorthShore 6 LittlePlasticNinja ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1035 "2010-08-19T00:20:07Z")
\*\*Vote Count: Suburban(8): Oredigger, Cucuy, Nanook, RedSkeezix, Gadarene, Specialed, Pleonast, Guiri USCDiver(1): Drainbead, Peeker(1): Natlaw Astral(2): OneandOnly, USCDiver Pleonast(1): Meeko, SpecialEd(6): Astral, Chronos, Telcontar, MHaye, Suburban, Chipacabra Chipacabra(2): Hoopy, Peeker\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1036 "2010-08-19T00:20:12Z")
Just want to make sure I understand here: The case against **Ed** depends on scum being provided a copy of the vanilla role PM, correct? (Because otherwise, **Ed** would not have had access to one to (1) use as his handshake at the beginning and (2) post as his own later in the thread.) This being the case, can someone explain to me why there wasn’t a whole lot more handshaking going on early? If scum both had a copy of the vanilla role PM and decided to use it to draw out vanillas at the outset (which is what people who think **Ed** is scum are necessarily claiming happened), then why did the attempt fizzle out so quickly? Did scum just, y’know, decide not to follow through on their plan? ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1037 "2010-08-19T00:28:44Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Does it look like this data might support an accusation that we were tending toward ‘lynch the loud’? > > \*\*Posts/ Name/ Votes > > \*\* 167 Peeker (2): > 147 SpecialEd(3): > 110 Gadarene > 72 Chronos (1) > 53 Suburban(8): > 53 Pleonast(2): > 47 HoopyFrood > 47 Astral(2): > 44 Red Skeezix > 26 Telcontar > 25 Meeko > 24 Chipacabra > 21 USCDiver(2): > 21 Cucuy > 19 Guiri > 18 MHaye > 17 OneandOnly > 16 Normal Phase/Inner Stickler > 12 Drain Bead > 11 Natlaw > 9 Oredigger > 8 NanooktheNorthShore > 6 LittlePlasticNinja Um. No? Not really. Those numbers, _combined with the actual vote justifications_ look like an attempt to obfuscate things. As a group, it looks more like lynch the slightly-above-mean-and-also-peeker. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1038 "2010-08-19T00:30:55Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > ok, let’s not make this easy. > > unvote > > vote chipa > > the more i read that post the more it sounds like scum just playing it straight down the middle on a mislynch. now that certainly does not exonerate the other candidates, but let’s see if we get a leader under our belt. especially one that is playing on the low end of participation. kind of right where i would expect scum to try and hide. This is a crappy vote. Your voting record in this game even more vacuous than your posting record. You announced a “vote for lurkers” strategy early on, which apparently justified your not taking a stand on anything. Then after taking your turn with both \*\*ed \*\*and I, you’re off on a completely different target? Take a stand, man! Vote for ed. vote for me. I don’t care. Just express a opinion. What are you afraid of? ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1039 "2010-08-19T00:33:16Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Just want to make sure I understand here: > > The case against **Ed** depends on scum being provided a copy of the vanilla role PM, correct? (Because otherwise, **Ed** would not have had access to one to (1) use as his handshake at the beginning and (2) post as his own later in the thread.) > > This being the case, can someone explain to me why there wasn’t a whole lot more handshaking going on early? If scum both had a copy of the vanilla role PM and decided to use it to draw out vanillas at the outset (which is what people who think **Ed** is scum are necessarily claiming happened), then why did the attempt fizzle out so quickly? Did scum just, y’know, decide not to follow through on their plan? I don’t think Ed was trying to draw out VTs. I think he was trying to draw out power roles. I just hope there really is more than one phrasing for the VT condition, and that the discrepancies we saw weren’t our power roles waving big stab me flags. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1040 "2010-08-19T00:36:29Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > > [@Gadarene](#): > > > > Just want to make sure I understand here: > > > > The case against **Ed** depends on scum being provided a copy of the vanilla role PM, correct? (Because otherwise, **Ed** would not have had access to one to (1) use as his handshake at the beginning and (2) post as his own later in the thread.) > > > > This being the case, can someone explain to me why there wasn’t a whole lot more handshaking going on early? If scum both had a copy of the vanilla role PM and decided to use it to draw out vanillas at the outset (which is what people who think **Ed** is scum are necessarily claiming happened), then why did the attempt fizzle out so quickly? Did scum just, y’know, decide not to follow through on their plan? > > I don’t think Ed was trying to draw out VTs. I think he was trying to draw out power roles. I just hope there really is more than one phrasing for the VT condition, and that the discrepancies we saw weren’t our power roles waving big stab me flags. What do you mean “VT condition”? As far as I know everyone who’s said anything about it has the same win condition, including **Chronos** , who’s a claimed power role. (And we still have no one stepping up to claim a role PM that looks remotely like **Suburban Plankton’s**. Hmmm, I wonder why that could possibly be!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=53)