# Lord of the Rings Mafia

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867>\
**Category:** The Game Room\
**Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 56

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**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1101 "2010-08-19T13:30:21Z")

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\*\*Vote Count:

Suburban(11): Oredigger, Cucuy, Nanook, RedSkeezix, Gadarene, Specialed, Pleonast, Guiri, Drainbead, InnerStickler, OneandOnly,

Peeker(1): Natlaw

Astral(2): USCDiver

Pleonast(1): Meeko,

SpecialEd(6): Astral, Chronos, Telcontar, MHaye, Suburban, Chipacabra

Chipacabra(2): Hoopy, Peeker\*\*

Day ends in 2 1/2 hours(what a long Day!). 🙂  
As always, check for accuracy. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1102 "2010-08-19T13:55:02Z")

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**You have the number “2” by Astral, but only indicate one person voting for him.**

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**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1103 "2010-08-19T14:00:37Z")

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ok, just trying to make sure about the current reasoning. can someone, in plain english, explain again why **burb** ’s role claim is horse hockey? i’d like to hear from one of the folks voting for him that finds this as the tell that makes him scum, preferably. or shoot probably from **burb** himself.

and this is just so i don’t screw up the gender thing.

is **astral** penis possessor or penis envyor? same goes with **chippy**. i mean we have a cow on another board that is a penis possessor and that makes no sense to me. however, it does provide ongoing moments of frivolity.

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**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1104 "2010-08-19T14:04:07Z")

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neta: and for god’s sake if you answer my question try not to go down the lines of: well i am so and so and my pm looks like blah blah blah and my powers are yada yada yada and my wincon is _insert terminology_. or however, in the hell your pm is arranged.

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**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1105 "2010-08-19T14:06:10Z")

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> [@peekercpa](#):
>
> ok, just trying to make sure about the current reasoning. can someone, in plain english, explain again why **burb** ’s role claim is horse hockey? i’d like to hear from one of the folks voting for him that finds this as the tell that makes him scum, preferably.

Start with my post #931, **peeker** , and go from there.

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**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1106 "2010-08-19T14:11:13Z")

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Hmmm…

So it appears Suburban is going to swing. In my opinion of our three top vote getters, Suburban was the most scummy, followed by Chipacabra, and then Ed in last place.

I unvoted Suburban because of the claim. It struck me as a bit odd to begin with, but Gadarene really delineated all that was wrong with it. (Incidentally, should plankton flip scum, that bodes well for the towniness of Gadarene. Either that or it was one Hell of a bus job). However, I’m stil wary of lynching a claimant on Day one.

I was rather hoping that people would switch to my preferred candidate of Chipacabra, but that’s not going to happen, and at this point I don’t think anyone should unless they really think I’m right here, but bear in mind that if you switch off Plankton, chances are likely that Ed will swing instead. (Though, a scenario like that at the end of the day would make for interesting datapoints.)

I’ll keep my vote where it is. Moving to Suburban, who I’d vote over Ed anyway, isn’t going to accomplish anything, and won’t buy me any town cred anyway should he flip scum. I think the odds are better than chance would dictate that he is scum, but I stand by my earlier position that lynching even a ham-fisted claim on Day 1 is less than optimal play, even if it ends up being the restrospectively correct play in this case.

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**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1107 "2010-08-19T14:25:23Z")

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> [@Gadarene](#):
>
> > [@peekercpa](#):
> >
> > ok, just trying to make sure about the current reasoning. can someone, in plain english, explain again why **burb** ’s role claim is horse hockey? i’d like to hear from one of the folks voting for him that finds this as the tell that makes him scum, preferably.
> 
> Start with my post #931, **peeker** , and go from there.

ok, gotcha.

good reasoning, potentially poor outcome. i know that there were three mods that helped design this game. i also know that **maha** was on vacation during the kind of final set up of this game. so i have no problem seeing the leap of having different “co-mods” construct different pms. matter of fact that is probably something that **story** and **sach** would come up with. let’s just write them in our own styles that way any determination based on pm formatting or language will just be a red herring.

i still think a player voicing an opinion that someone is most likely scum and then not voting that person is nonsense. shoot you may be wrong but follow your convictions. otherwise you are just creating a whole bunch of future wiggle room. this is a huge scum motivator.

now does this make **burb** town? absolutely not. matter of fact if i had two votes he would be getting the second one right now. but i have to go with whom i find scummiest.

vote stands.

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**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1108 "2010-08-19T14:26:41Z")

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and fucking **hoopy** quit channeling.

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**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1109 "2010-08-19T14:31:51Z")

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> [@peekercpa](#):
>
> ok, just trying to make sure about the current reasoning. can someone, in plain english, explain again why **burb** ’s role claim is horse hockey?

Even though I’m voting for Ed, I’ll take a stab at a quick summary. His claim isn’t consistent in several ways; his win condition appears in an unlikely place compared to ed’s posted vanilla PM, his wording is awkward and “unlike” Mahaloth’s other PMs. He uses “Dark Forces” instead of “Sauron and his minions” as suggested by others. I’m just going off memory here, so somebody should correct me if I’m wrong.

For the record, I agree with Gadarene’s case against him. However, I disagree with lynching him. His claim rubs me all kinds of wrong, but on day 1 I don’t think it’s worth the risk to lynch him, _given the possibility that he’s telling the truth._ A day 2 or day 3 lynch would be better, to my mind.

We all to varying degrees feel that his actions have been scummy, but this is circumstantial evidence. I still recommend letting him live for a day or two to “gather evidence.” As long as we don’t give too much weight to what he says in the intervening time, I don’t see how that could hurt town, and if we’re wrong about him, we stand to gain a bit of knowledge. Given his claim, we have to lynch him eventually to find out if he’s telling the truth; I just think it should be later rather than sooner.

One final note: I can think of a reason that nobody has confirmed his role PM. **If it’s accurate, they’d be volunteering the fact that they’re also power roles.**

> [@](#):
>
> is **astral** penis possessor or penis envyor?

I’m a dude. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1110 "2010-08-19T14:33:41Z")

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I see Gadarene already pointed you in the right direction. Took me to too long to compose this post, I guess!

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**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1111 "2010-08-19T14:35:21Z")

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> [@Astral\_Rejection](#):
>
> One final note: I can think of a reason that nobody has confirmed his role PM. **If it’s accurate, they’d be volunteering the fact that they’re also power roles.**

Why? The parts of the PM I’m questioning aren’t power role-specific.

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**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1112 "2010-08-19T14:44:55Z")

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I know. You had issues with these sections:

> [@](#):
>
> 1. “You have seen Sauron’s burning eye through your Palantir and know all of Middle-earth will be destroyed.”
> 2. “You have little hope and little control over your fate, it is only a matter of time until the advance of Darkness will be seen and feared by all.”
> 3. “You have a Palantir. You must use it during the Night to watch one other player in the game and will learn if they are a Servant of Darkness or not.”

However, presumably those are specific only to him, if he made them up or if they’re actually parts of his role PM. Nobody can confirm or deny them. So somebody would have to comfirm a different part, like, say, the location of his win condition. It’s not a stretch to assume if his PM is genuine, other power role PMs might have the win condition in the same place. And I would absolutely understand if somebody with a power chose to remain silent on the issue.

I could be wrong on any part of that analysis. I just wanted to raise that point for consideration.

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**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1113 "2010-08-19T14:46:36Z")

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I did forget one possibility; that somebody’s PM could use the phrase “Servant of Darkness.” That would be another soft confirmation of SP’s claim, but again, I can understand why somebody would decide not to draw attention to themselves.

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**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1114 "2010-08-19T14:49:38Z")

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> [@Astral\_Rejection](#):
>
> I know. You had issues with these sections:
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > 1. “You have seen Sauron’s burning eye through your Palantir and know all of Middle-earth will be destroyed.”
> > 2. “You have little hope and little control over your fate, it is only a matter of time until the advance of Darkness will be seen and feared by all.”
> > 3. “You have a Palantir. You must use it during the Night to watch one other player in the game and will learn if they are a Servant of Darkness or not.”
> 
> However, presumably those are specific only to him, if he made them up or if they’re actually parts of his role PM. Nobody can confirm or deny them. So somebody would have to comfirm a different part, like, say, the location of his win condition. It’s not a stretch to assume if his PM is genuine, other power role PMs might have the win condition in the same place. And I would absolutely understand if somebody with a power chose to remain silent on the issue.
> 
> I could be wrong on any part of that analysis. I just wanted to raise that point for consideration.

Um…other people could confirm whether they had language remotely close to 1 or 2, or references to Servants of Darkness, or language that (like **Suburban’s** ) appeared to be taken from a completely dfifferent template than **Ed’s** PM, or whatever. It’s not like **Suburban’s** claimed PM is only different from **Ed’s** (and my) PM by a very little bit or anything. It sounds completely different. It sounds like a scum PM that’s been retrofitted to be a cover role. If anyone would like to step forward to say that their PM _also_ sounds like a scum PM that’s been retrofitted to be a cover role, then we can have a discussion. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1115 "2010-08-19T14:49:54Z")

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Look, if you guys want to lynch a claimed investigator on Day 1, go ahead. Personally, I think you’re nuts. Even if you turn out to be right in this game, it is still the lower percentage play. Really, what harm is there is giving him another day?

At this point, I hope suburban is mafia because otherwise the last 300 posts are going to be required reading tomorrow. Also, can people please cut down on the fluff? This thread is insane and anything that makes the game thread harder to read is substantially anti town. Some players don’t have 20 posts. It’s damn hard to keep track of them with the utter crap filling the thread. Please think before you post.

@Gandarene - Mahaloth: “here is the vanilla PM. Push it around a little for specific people if you feel like it. Story, can you handle the Denathor PM and the Aragorn PM? OtherMod, can you do Legolas and Gimli? Do whatever, so long as the powers are as we discussed.”

Suburban is either 1.) A horribly incompetent scum who couldn’t even write a good role PM or 2.) an honest townie whose role PM is nonstandard. I see no reason to so totally discount 2 as to lynch a claimed investigator when there are other good candidates.

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**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1116 "2010-08-19T14:51:41Z")

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> [@Gadarene](#):
>
> > [@Astral\_Rejection](#):
> >
> > One final note: I can think of a reason that nobody has confirmed his role PM. **If it’s accurate, they’d be volunteering the fact that they’re also power roles.**
> 
> Why? The parts of the PM I’m questioning aren’t power role-specific.

And we’ve had a (quasi-?)power role in Chronos who said the location of win condition was in the same place as everyone else who’s commented on the location of win condition. It seems the difference in townie PMs amounts mostly to color, not layout.

Plankton’s PM has a different layout from apparently everyone else. That’s probably the most damning piece of evidence. The fact that the wording and overall logic behind the role seems suspect adds to the case. Taken individually, none of them would be an issue, but together, the thing stinks of a badly cobbled-together fake claim.

And if he flips town, I think those who voted him won’t and shouldn’t be automatically chastised. There’s bound to be scum on that bandwagon (even if scum, there’s bound to be scum on that wagon at this point), but a claim like that combined with his actions toDay scream scum and you can’t fault town too much for the vote. I disagree with it, but I seem to be in the minority.

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**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1117 "2010-08-19T14:52:55Z")

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Also, in response to this Servant of Darkness nonsense: Imagine there is a third party in the game. Third parties almost always show up to the cop as something other than town. Servant of Darkness = Sauron and his minions + 3rd party.

The goal of this game is to find the truth, not serve as the best possible prosecutor against a specific player. I started the movement against suburban. I know why he looks scummy. Now will someone please tell me why we should kill him today when there is benefit to letting him live until tomorrow if we’re wrong?

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**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1118 "2010-08-19T14:56:55Z")

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> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#):
>
> And if he flips town, I think those who voted him won’t and shouldn’t be automatically chastised. There’s bound to be scum on that bandwagon (even if scum, there’s bound to be scum on that wagon at this point), but a claim like that combined with his actions toDay scream scum and you can’t fault town too much for the vote. I disagree with it, but I seem to be in the minority.

Are you trying to argue that we _shouldn’t_ look too closely at those who voted for SP, if he flips town?

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**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1119 "2010-08-19T14:58:39Z")

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> [@peekercpa](#):
>
> ok, just trying to make sure about the current reasoning. can someone, in plain english, explain again why **burb** ’s role claim is horse hockey? i’d like to hear from one of the folks voting for him that finds this as the tell that makes him scum, preferably. or shoot probably from **burb** himself.

I’m afraid can’t help you with explaining why my claim is horse hockey…for obvious reasons…

But I can address what I think are the major arguments against me.

[ul][li]I was ‘all over the board’ early on in the game, throwing suspicions out left and right but not taking a stand.[/li][/ul]I’m not sure what to say about this exactly, because I was throwing stuff out to see what sticks. I kinda figured that was the thing to do early in Day 1. I didn’t vote for anyone early on, because nothing really smelled that scummy.  
[ul]  
[li]I said “everyone was out to get me”[/li][/ul]I’ve explained what I meant. You are all smart people so I know you understand what I’ve said on the subject. Whether or not you choose to believe me is another story, but I’ll mention that “I made a mistake…I shouldn’t have said that” is an excuse that has been used by others in this game as well.  
[ul]  
[li]My PM in not formatted the same as others[/li][/ul]I can’t really comment on that, because I didn’t write it.  
Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to go. There’s a man here at my desk wanting to measure my neck…

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1120 "2010-08-19T15:03:48Z")

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> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#):
>
> And we’ve had a (quasi-?)power role in Chronos who said the location of win condition was in the same place as everyone else who’s commented on the location of win condition. It seems the difference in townie PMs amounts mostly to color, not layout.
> 
> Plankton’s PM has a different layout from apparently everyone else. That’s probably the most damning piece of evidence. The fact that the wording and overall logic behind the role seems suspect adds to the case. Taken individually, none of them would be an issue, but together, the thing stinks of a badly cobbled-together fake claim.

You’re assuming, of course, that Chronos is actually town and didn’t make everything up. I agree with Gadarene and you that his posted PM doesn’t look good; I was just raising a _possible_ defense for why nobody’s confirmed it. Telcontar is making some other excellent posts. While I currently believe that there’s a good chance SP is scum, I’d still like us to wait on his lynch, for reasons I’ve already raised.

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