# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1381 "2010-08-23T02:16:38Z")
ok, i am going out on a limb here, but what is new. i don’t think **ed** is scum. he fucking causes me all sorts of intestinal distress but so does broccoli so that is kind of a null tell. **vote wanderer** for the same reason as yesterday. that just sounded totally off. plus he is right in the wheelhouse of where i would expect scum to be. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1382 "2010-08-23T02:22:01Z")
neta: and i want to make this clear. **ed** is there something that you can’t talk about or something you have been requested to not talk about by the mod? i understand that is open to interpretation, but i just have to know what your read is. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1383 "2010-08-23T02:33:00Z")
\*\*Vote Count: AstralRejection(2): Redskeezix, Specialed SpecialEd(3): Chronos, Chipacabra, Meeko Chipacabra(2): Hoopy, Gadarene OneandOnly(1): Peeker \*\* ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1384 "2010-08-23T02:56:18Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > neta: and i want to make this clear. **ed** is there something that you can’t talk about or something you have been requested to not talk about by the mod? > > i understand that is open to interpretation, but i just have to know what your read is. In a recent game on the Giraffe. The moderators came close to mod-killing me for coming too close to breaking the spirit of their rules. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1385 "2010-08-23T03:29:26Z")
\*\*\*Parts Snipped. * * * > [@special\_ed](#): > > Hey, if we have a Vig, toNight might be the time to start shooting at the people who aren’t posting too much. \*\*And we are protecting Peeker here because? \*\* > [@Chronos](#): > > For that matter, toDay might be the time to start lynching those folks. Unless, of course, we find some better reason to lynch someone. The way I see it, Pleonast needs to share a few things with us from last night. I will be popping the popcorn for when he does. There will come a time when he will have to back up his magic bag. If he can’t, then you will have the answer to the second part of your quote above. Unless, **Chronos** , you don’t think **Pleonast** has anything useful to say? > [@special\_ed](#): > > Little participation is considered by some to be a Scum tell. I look at it as a null tell. Not participating is a null tell, and as peeker says, anti-game. > > Some players are high content, low volume posters though. I would include Nanook and MHaye in that category. > > Here is the post count (a place to start, but not the be-all-end-all of measuring participation for all the players: > > 1. Peeker 257 > 2. SpecialEd 191 > 3. Gadarene 139 > 4. Chronos 99 > 5. Suburban Plankton 68 - Dead > 6. HoopyFrood 61 > 7. Astral Rejection 59 > 8. Red Skeezix 56 > 9. Pleonast 54 > 10. Meeko 34 Well I guess this puts me in the upper half, even with Telcontar and Plankton offing it. **Ed** : Would you say that **Peeker** is being Pro-game, this game? I mean, if not-posting is anti-game, **Peeker** must be playing one of his best this time around. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1386 "2010-08-23T03:40:15Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > Hey, if we have a Vig, toNight might be the time to start shooting at the people who aren’t posting too much. > > \*\*And we are protecting Peeker here because? \*\* No, I’m just suggesting a strategy for a possible Vigilante. We can vote off the lurkers, but that doesn’t give us much information about why people voted the way they did. It’s not so easy to determine if the people voting are Town or not. Unless the result is that a Scum is killed. Then, maybe there’s a little bit to be gleaned from it, but probably not enough with the possibility of bussing. > [@Meeko](#): > > **Ed** : Would you say that **Peeker** is being Pro-game, this game? I mean, if not-posting is anti-game, **Peeker** must be playing one of his best this time around. :dubious: Sure, peeker is playing the game. Being Town or not is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1387 "2010-08-23T03:41:12Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Little participation is considered by some to be a Scum tell. I look at it as a null tell. Not participating is a null tell, and as peeker says, anti-game. > > Some players are high content, low volume posters though. I would include Nanook and MHaye in that category. Wait. Wait. Wait. **Screeching Brakes.** **Peeker gets a pass here, but Nanook and MHaye Don’t?!** I wonder if you can’t Sudoku-ize Mafia. If you could, I would lump Nanook and MHaye together as Town, and move Peeker closer to Ed as anti-town. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1388 "2010-08-23T03:58:52Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > Little participation is considered by some to be a Scum tell. I look at it as a null tell. Not participating is a null tell, and as peeker says, anti-game. > > > > Some players are high content, low volume posters though. I would include Nanook and MHaye in that category. > > Wait. Wait. Wait. > > **Screeching Brakes.** > **Peeker gets a pass here, but Nanook and MHaye Don’t?!** > > I wonder if you can’t Sudoku-ize Mafia. If you could, I would lump Nanook and MHaye together as Town, and move Peeker closer to Ed as anti-town. Meeko, I think you fail to understand. See, what I said was that I consider MHaye and Nanook to be players who participate despite a lower post count. I didn’t make any reference to their alignment. They could be Town, Scum, or other. As could peeker. I’m talking about lurkers. Lurkers can be of any alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1389 "2010-08-23T04:08:11Z")
Yeah, I remember Disney mafia on giraffe. I think maybe half of the scum team were posting once or twice if at all in the day threads but still putting in their various actions on the scum board. I seem to recall town hurting from a lynch the loud philosophy in that game. The whole tone of the ed/peeker argument smells of townie on townie to me. I get a strong sense of frustration on both their parts. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1390 "2010-08-23T04:39:57Z")
Quoth **ed** : > [@](#): > > (At least it should seem odd to Chronos who thinks Scum wouldn’t make a mistake if they had that information) What have I said that gives you that impression? Of course Scum can make mistakes, no matter what information they have. While I’m here… This whole “I’ve got a secret” business from **ed** : So far as I can tell, **ed** is implying that **Mahaloth** accidentally gave him some information that he shouldn’t have, and so swore him to secrecy. But apparently, one implication of the information **ed** got is that he will automatically distrust anyone claiming Glorfindel, and he’s proclaiming that bit of it from the rooftops. If **Mahaloth** forbade him sharing any of the secret information he gained, why is he still allowed to say that part, which certainly has game implications? For that matter, it took him a while to start talking about Glorfindel, which would presumably mean that he waited to ask **Mahaloth** permission before saying that much. But before he had that permission, why say anything at all? Why post the “I’m waiting to see if **Mahaloth** lets me do what I want to do” post? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1391 "2010-08-23T04:55:23Z")
Well, first of all, and I realize this is not very helpful, but I’ve played with Ed before and this sort of thing is pretty standard for him. So part of me says, it’s ed being ed. (Also, and I don’t remember what the rules say on this point, but there’s the possibility that he’s going for a modkill in order to give town a second bite at the apple as it were. But I don’t really think Ed would do that this early in the game) Secondly, we don’t know what went on between mahaloth and him. Perhaps Maha said, you can say you will vote for anyone claiming glorfindel but you can’t say whatever it is ed is forbidden to say. My thought is, speculation is relatively useless, since the salient info cannot be gained from Ed until the game ends. And trying to play some sort of weird charades about it seems more like you’re playing against the mod than the players. All that being said, with yesterday’s lynch we’ve earned ourselves some breathing room. So if people wanted to lynch ed in order to get answers, I’m not adamantly opposed, but I’d rather go after someone I’m more convinced is scum. And I don’t think ed is that person. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1392 "2010-08-23T08:47:45Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > OK, I think **Telcontar** ’s death seems to have confirmed what I was afraid of: There really is only one vanilla PM role format. Telcontar’s didn’t match up because he wasn’t vanilla, scum noticed, scum night killed him. > > So, yeah. I still think Ed successfully flushed out power roles for the scum to kill. > **Special Ed** Me too, but I think it is a mistaken play by a townie, not a scum ploy. Do you think Ed is scum or is this a punitive vote? ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1393 "2010-08-23T08:51:52Z")
I think Ed is scum for the same reasons I explained earlier. This scenario doesn’t contradict me, so I’m sticking with my vote. Also, the Glorfindel shenanigans are not sitting right with me. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1394 "2010-08-23T09:58:39Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > I wasn’t making that assumption knowingly, but that’s a good point that I hadn’t picked up on. I want to think about it a bit, but I guess the initial distinction I’d make is that others seem to be voting for **Ed** in large part _because_ of his claimed knowledge of a vanilla Town PM, which just seems bizarre to me. My case against **Special Ed** was dependent on scum having access to a VT PM and the strong scum motivation for his use of that PM, not simply because he was familiar with the content. - A scummy **Special Ed** saw the opportunity to perform an apparently pro-town action by leading a handshake attempt which he knew had no chance of actually confirmed any VTs - His scum motivation was to eliminate the VTs from the unconfirmed pool thus reducing the places for power roles to hide - In order to do thus he chose to handshake with more than just the wincon. This prevented non-VTs from handshaking and, possibly unintentionally, directly exposed non-VTs who failed to handshake correctly Now, it’s possible that a Townie **Special Ed** made an honest attempt at handshaking which backfired but there is some evidence against this: - Knowing non-VTs would be unable to handshake, while his initial interaction with **Chronos** could have been an attempt to out him as scum, once **Chronos** had posted the previously non-public wincon in #131, he should have been aware that **Chronos** may have been non-VT but a Town power - He’s stated that he knew the handshaking attempt failed (for Town) since **Mahaloth** had not stepped in (he posted 3 minutes after **Special Ed** ’s post) although he continued to actively encourage additional handshaking attempts afterwards - Only after a numbers of players stated their concerns that the handshaking attempt may have been helping scum more than Town did he ask people to refrain from further attempts > [@Gadarene](#): > > My suspicions of **Chip** are founded solely on his seemingly scummy posts at the end of Day One, the seeming scumminess of which is irrespective of his participation in the handshaking. I’m not questioning the case against **Chipacabra** per se, I found his comments and unvote/vote quite scummy too and that’s what lead me to do a WoW where I was reminded of his handshaking attempt. I just wanted to understand why, on multiple occasions, you have questioned the case against **Special Ed** for being dependent on scum having access to the VT PM but are happy to vote **Chipacabra** whose new handshake matched the yet-to-be-public VT PM - it seems inconsistent to me but does not exonerate **Chipacabra**. And to answer an earlier question of yours: > [@Gadarene](#): > > Just want to make sure I understand here: > > The case against **Ed** depends on scum being provided a copy of the vanilla role PM, correct? (Because otherwise, **Ed** would not have had access to one to (1) use as his handshake at the beginning and (2) post as his own later in the thread.) > > This being the case, can someone explain to me why there wasn’t a whole lot more handshaking going on early? If scum both had a copy of the vanilla role PM and decided to use it to draw out vanillas at the outset (which is what people who think **Ed** is scum are necessarily claiming happened), then why did the attempt fizzle out so quickly? Did scum just, y’know, decide not to follow through on their plan? I count 12 players who were involved in some sort of handshaking between #116 and #394. It did not exactly “fizzle out”, even after multiple players suggested that at best the attempt was worthless and, at worst, we were giving information to scum. I do not know if scum followed through on their plan or not but knowing there was no chance of them being falsely confirmed as VT, they may have chosen not to bother getting involved. What we do know is: - **Surburban** made no attempt to handshake (he posted in #187) and stated that he saw no validity in the attempt in #358. - **Suburban** ’s false PM bore little resemblance to the VT PM even though it had been posted 24 hours earlier. - **Telcontar** failed in his handshake attempt and was NKed. It’s possible to deduce that scum used the information provided to target **Telcontar** as a likely power role but **Suburban** ’s lack of handshake and PM format do not indicate a scum team being in possession of a VT PM. I’m unsure what to make of **Special Ed** ’s recent play (“I’m not Glorfindel”) and for now I’m focusing my scum hunting efforts elsewhere as I’m aware that there’s still a possibility that a townie **Special Ed** simply messed up. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1395 "2010-08-23T13:44:15Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > Little participation is considered by some to be a Scum tell. I look at it as a null tell. Not participating is a null tell, and as peeker says, anti-game. > > > > Some players are high content, low volume posters though. I would include Nanook and MHaye in that category. > > Wait. Wait. Wait. > > **Screeching Brakes.** > **Peeker gets a pass here, but Nanook and MHaye Don’t?!** \ i think **ed** has addressed this as well. **mhaye** and **nook** don’t seem to post in volume but they don’t fluff, either. when they do post it is typically content laden. matter of fact, if they were one of the post leaders i would be going, hmmm. conversely if **ed** me or you were to be posting only once or twice a Day i would equally be going, hmmm. and yeh i have been super chatty this game. but a lot of that is personal. i currently am working small gigs from home so really my only form of passing the time is by surfing the net. so yeh, i have been able to devote a lot more time (and posts, apparantly) than is normal for me. i don’t think **ed** is in any way, shape or form giving me a pass. merely that certain posting styles are a null tell. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1396 "2010-08-23T13:51:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For that matter, toDay might be the time to start lynching those folks. Unless, of course, we find some better reason to lynch someone. Chipicabra’s vote history and his weasel words surrounding his vote for Ed seems like a better reason to lynch him than a lurker. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1397 "2010-08-23T13:56:37Z")
Hey all - sorry I’m just now checking in. Need to review, but let’s get this out first: While following along, I thought that \*\*Telcontar \*\*had made some of what I call “Captain Obvious” posts, but now I can’t find a good example. Anyway, I was all about to ask him about them, but no dice now, hey? \*\*Telcontar \*\*does say in 578: > [@Telcontar](#): > > 4.) **Pleonast** ’s claim is currently meaningless. Let the scum and the doctor figure out what to do with it. As we now know, he was the doctor. Is it likely he protected **Pleonast**? I think yes, as in 1115: > [@Telcontar](#): > > Look, if you guys want to lynch a claimed investigator on Day 1, go ahead. Personally, I think you’re nuts. Even if you turn out to be right in this game, it is still the lower percentage play. Really, what harm is there is giving him another day? This reads to me that \*\*Telcontar \*\*didn’t self-protect and chose to protect \*\*Pleonast \*\*instead - maybe not the best decision for someone already outed as a town power role. And clearly \*\*Pleo \*\*wasn’t targeted last night… Yeah, **Pleo** ’s got some 'splaining to do. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1398 "2010-08-23T13:58:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **ed** : > > > [@](#): > > > > (At least it should seem odd to Chronos who thinks Scum wouldn’t make a mistake if they had that information) > > What have I said that gives you that impression? Of course Scum can make mistakes, no matter what information they have. > > While I’m here… This whole “I’ve got a secret” business from **ed** : So far as I can tell, **ed** is implying that **Mahaloth** accidentally gave him some information that he shouldn’t have, and so swore him to secrecy. But apparently, one implication of the information **ed** got is that he will automatically distrust anyone claiming Glorfindel, and he’s proclaiming that bit of it from the rooftops. If **Mahaloth** forbade him sharing any of the secret information he gained, why is he still allowed to say that part, which certainly has game implications? > > For that matter, it took him a while to start talking about Glorfindel, which would presumably mean that he waited to ask **Mahaloth** permission before saying that much. But before he had that permission, why say anything at all? Why post the “I’m waiting to see if **Mahaloth** lets me do what I want to do” post? and i hear what you are saying but at times one comes into possession of information that one should not, typically accidentally. wasn’t there one time that a scum posted to the main thread, then deleted it but it had already been seen by a townie. i think there was some discussion along the lines of what could be shared (i don’t think there was modkill via edit in that game) about that information. and the time that **pede** (i think?) cc’d the town role to everyone. but since he didn’t bc everyone, everyone that was town knew who every other townie was. well that caused a reset because it broke the durn game. i guess what i am getting at is that at times, a player may fall into possession of information accidentally and that the mod may very well request that they remain silent to remain in then spirit of the game. what i can’t figure is that why **ed** felt that he could share some of the information but not all. however with our current cast of mods i can see an oops followed with an allowance, but partial only. and i hate fracking magic bags as well but sometimes they can’t be avoided. however, this should in no way be interpreted as a ringing endorsement of **ed** ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1399 "2010-08-23T14:00:07Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I also need to revisit the timing of the vote on **ed** , because in searching for his posts, I can’t see how that went down. I did a vote analysis on the Ed/Suburban thing here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12826673&postcount=1296](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12826673&postcount=1296) . It shows the definitely suspicious voting that Chip did, and that was before Guiri corrected me on the fact that Ed’s vote total was actually one higher since Mahaloth had missed Guiri’s vote on him (Guiri’s post is here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12826962&postcount=1307](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12826962&postcount=1307) ), and I started after the point the vote was missed. So Chip even looks more suspicious in that light. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1400 "2010-08-23T14:01:45Z")
So peeker, are you going to answer my question upthread, or just keep ignoring it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=71)