# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1621 "2010-08-24T13:49:49Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > Treebeard? Really? Seems like a total cover for scum. \ see, and this is the dichotomy of canon/color. does it ring true or not. i find it highly unlikely that in this game that aragorn is some sort of godfather bad guy or that sauron would be the knight in shining armor for town. and this is where i get metagame knowing the mods. there was a game where i was a town aligned doc/miller. and from canon you could construct that role. and in the universe that is lotr i believe that there are many such constructs that could apply. denethor is the perfect example. is he a frustrated townie or a scum acting out on his dementia. now is **chippy** really treabeard. i have no clue. but i don’t see how you construct that character into being scum aligned. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1622 "2010-08-24T13:53:03Z")
quick question: and i probably missed it so sorry. where did the mod post the vanilla pm? ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1623 "2010-08-24T13:53:24Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@Snickers](#): > > > > Treebeard? Really? Seems like a total cover for scum. > > \ > > see, and this is the dichotomy of canon/color. does it ring true or not. i find it highly unlikely that in this game that aragorn is some sort of godfather bad guy or that sauron would be the knight in shining armor for town. > > and this is where i get metagame knowing the mods. there was a game where i was a town aligned doc/miller. and from canon you could construct that role. and in the universe that is lotr i believe that there are many such constructs that could apply. denethor is the perfect example. is he a frustrated townie or a scum acting out on his dementia. > > now is **chippy** really treabeard. i have no clue. but i don’t see how you construct that character into being scum aligned. He isn’t, he’s saying that Chupa’s real role is evil bad guy X, and Treebeard is a mod provided fake claim. How true that is remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1624 "2010-08-24T13:54:29Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > quick question: and i probably missed it so sorry. where did the mod post the vanilla pm? He hasn’t. Ed has posted a vanilla claim and so has Chupa. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1625 "2010-08-24T13:57:58Z")
Chipa. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1626 "2010-08-24T14:12:20Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > > [@peekercpa](#): > > > > quick question: and i probably missed it so sorry. where did the mod post the vanilla pm? > > He hasn’t. Ed has posted a vanilla claim and so has Chupa. **chupacabra** and this is why i really don’t like posting pms verbatim. all that will be accomplished in a **chippy** lynch is establishing him as niller which provides scum a blue print for future vt claims. or establishing that the scum have the niller pm which means that any subsequent niller claim is suspect. but we do get the side benefit of killing a scum 🙂 so in that case net/net town is better off. i just really struggle with these types of discussion and long term ramifications. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1627 "2010-08-24T14:17:43Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > > > He hasn’t. Ed has posted a vanilla claim and so has Chupa. > > **chupacabra** > > and this is why i really don’t like posting pms verbatim. all that will be accomplished in a **chippy** lynch is establishing him as niller which provides scum a blue print for future vt claims. or establishing that the scum have the niller pm which means that any subsequent niller claim is suspect. but we do get the side benefit of killing a scum 🙂 so in that case net/net town is better off. i just really struggle with these types of discussion and long term ramifications. I don’t follow this. If Ed is town, then scum have the niller blueprint. If Ed is scum, they must have had the niller blueprint to try and pull off the handshake. Either way, they have it. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1628 "2010-08-24T14:42:28Z")
Regardless of whether scum had the VT role PM at the beginning of the game or not, they certainly had it by post #746 when \*\*ed \*\*posted “his” vanilla townie role PM. (This was Tuesday in Day1, or Tuesday of yesterDay.) They’ve had that blueprint for a while now. **One And Only** is correct - I’m saying that while \*\*Chip \*\*could be Treebeard, it’s such a weird role for \*\*Mahaloth \*\*to have put in the game as a real vanilla townie. Even Tolkien had problems with Treebeard. In the books, he couldn’t even be bothered to care about the fate of Middle-Earth, really - he was just so _other_. While it’s possible that **Chip** ’s Treebeard, it’s more likely (to me) that he’s scummy scum scum hiding behind a cover role. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1629 "2010-08-24T14:45:39Z")
And with that, I **vote Chipacabra** for the weird Treebeard claim, for trying to protect \*\*Plankton \*\*with his votes, for muddying the waters with VT PM postulations, and for the strange **ed** /\*\*Plankton \*\*connection. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1630 "2010-08-24T14:46:50Z")
I would love for Treebeard to be a provided fake claim. Can’t see the scum for the trees! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1631 "2010-08-24T14:59:09Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > I typically don’t post during fluff-only Nights, because it’s a waste of my time. I’m not sure why you’re asking me to PM you, since that’s not allowed. > > Wow. > > \*\*WOW. \*\* > > I’ve heard of dodging a question, but you are the first person I’ve seen to dodge and smudge at the same time. > > \*\* > Unvote Ed.\*\* > > **Vote Pleonast.** > > \*\* > I am asking you to put your money where your “I am a town power role” mouth is. Post a PM you sent or received from last night. \*\* > > How stupid do you think I am, that I would ask you to prove your vanillaness, after you staked Town power role from the get go? > > How on earth you took that to mean that I want you to cheat is beyond me. How on earth you thought you could dodge it is beyond that. > > Until we get somewhere with this, my new vote is staying. Okay, so you don’t want to back off from the role-fishing. Instead you want to attack me calling you on your role-fishing. That’s about as pro-scum and anti-town as you can get. **unvote** **vote Meeko** **vote MHaye** **vote peekercpa** I’m willing to switch to either **MHaye** or **peeker** as my primary vote. I see **peeker** has given up any pretext of being helpful to town. > [@Meeko](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > I’m not sure why you (or **Meeko** ) expect any information from me. > > **You are not confirmed. You have no teeth here. Keep that in mind.** > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Quoth **Pleonast** :You misunderstand. He’s asking if you had any Night actions of note, or PMs to or from the moderator. **Since you claimed a power role, and all**. > > **THIS.** > > So, You are Power Role town, and I am supposed to take your word for it? > > **Or rather, I am supposed to take your NON word for it, but confirm you for it anyway?** > > Where is the Town motivation in that? > > It is not Fishing in the slightest. > > You entered this game by magic bag claiming. A vote against you for not backing that up is the price of admission. [I believe there is a pun here, but I can’t find it.] > > You can’t pre-ordain yourself as Power Town, and teflon everything else based on your unconfirmed claim. We are well down the road of you being quasi-confirmed based just on your words alone. At best you are pseudo-confirmed. I’m one to make sure that we don’t forget that. > > I can smell the Fallacy from here. I can’t name it, but then again, my track record with Occam’s Razor and Wine is not the best it should be. > > All I need to know is that part of this is NOT kosher. And that’s enough for me. > > Ed and Peeker can spam the game all they want with disenfranchising cannon specific trvial tidbits that I can’t begin to decipher. That’s fine, I will go for the vote on the guy that is playing too big for his britches, at any role. One requires uber-specific knowledge of canon shoe-horned into a Mafia game, and the other is universal, in Mafia and otherwise. I am not confirmed. I never claimed to be confirmed, nor have I asked to be considered confirmed. I didn’t claim a magic bag because I never promised anything. You are projecting your own motivations onto me. That’s your prerogative, but don’t then accuse me of doing something that I haven’t done. If you’re not role-fishing, what are you asking me for? > [@Meeko](#): > > > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > > > Pleo is not claiming that he’s confirmed town, meeko. Calm down. > > I know he is not confirmed. I am reminding him of that fact. He seems to be making every move since his magic bag claim as if he already was confirmed. His comments that he doesn’t owe me anything is similar to him pissing on me and saying that I should be thankful for that much. He wants to act Ex Cathedra, and I am reminding him, and the game at large that he could very well be a heretic. The dodges to my questions don’t help him. What am I doing that acts like I’m confirmed? I’m not answering your questions because you’re blatantly role-fishing. I couldn’t answer your questions without revealing my role. That’s role fishing and it’s anti-town. Voting me for not being role-fished makes it even more pro-scum. Think about it. What does the town have to gain by me revealing more information? What does the scum have to gain? You don’t know? Well, I do and I’ve decided not to say more. Sorry if it offends you when another player makes a different decision than you. > [@cucuy](#): > > Before I start getting fired up over this, can someone please explain to me **why** this isn’t scummy? Better yet, why this could be of help to town? It is scummy by just about any standard. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1632 "2010-08-24T15:08:10Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > so you think claiming a power role is a get out of jail free card? don’t bother me because i am something kind of attitude. heepus help me, that makes no sense. we’ve got a dead doc so it doesn’t take fracking einstein to leap to the conclusion that you are either claiming dick or rb (or maybe a vote changer - which i find unlikely). and with only one death last Night if you are an rb the odds are that you hit a killer. and if you are a dick your Days are pretty much numbered so why you want to be close to the vest is really puzzling. I finally figured out what was wrong with this post. He assumes that I’m one of three roles. He’s either intentionally omitting other possible roles or he has limited imagination. **peeker** , why did you assume I was either “dick” or “rb” (or maybe “vote changer”)? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1633 "2010-08-24T15:43:47Z")
**Pleo** , it’s not really possible for anyone to fish you, since you’ve already leapt out of the water and into the boat on your own. Fishing is trying to find out who the power roles are. You’ve already said you’re a power role; now we’re just trying to find out _what_ power role you are, which is a reasonable pro-Town activity. You have in fact promised us something, in your very first post: To claim a power role is to claim that there’s something you have to contribute. We’re just trying to get you to say _what_ you’re promising. This is the kind of reaction you should expect when your very first post to the game is a power role claim, and if you didn’t want this sort of reaction, you shouldn’t have done that. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1634 "2010-08-24T16:10:50Z")
FWIW, when I saw **Pleonast** ’s original claim, my assumption was that he was either the Doc or Scum, as I surmised the pro-Town reason for soft-claiming would be an attempt at drawing a NK, which he would of course be blocking, and I figured everyone else would be assuming that as well and thus wouldn’t be surprised if he stayed alive a while–a perfect cover for Scum. Now that **Telcontar** has been revealed as our dead Doc, I think **Pleonast** is much more likely to be Scum–the one-off votes with weird reasons being more evidence of it. I think **Chip** is the scummiest still, but **Pleo** is probably second on my list at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1635 "2010-08-24T16:16:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Pleo** , it’s not really possible for anyone to fish you, since you’ve already leapt out of the water and into the boat on your own. Fishing is trying to find out who the power roles are. You’ve already said you’re a power role; now we’re just trying to find out _what_ power role you are, which is a reasonable pro-Town activity. You have in fact promised us something, in your very first post: To claim a power role is to claim that there’s something you have to contribute. We’re just trying to get you to say _what_ you’re promising. This is the kind of reaction you should expect when your very first post to the game is a power role claim, and if you didn’t want this sort of reaction, you shouldn’t have done that. I completely disagree. Searching for power roles is one type of fishing. But asking for revealing information from a power role is also fishing. For example, asking a claimed Mason about the total number of Masons is fishing. If an investigator says someone is town but refuses to say what role, demanding they reveal the role is fishing. **Meeko** (and **Snickers** ) asking me for revealing information is fishing. I also disagree that revealing information is necessarily a “reasonable pro-Town activity”. That is impossible for anyone not in possession of the information to judge. Some information is better kept secret until the conditions are favorable. You yourself are holding back information. A claim of a power role is either a statement of fact or a lie. There is no implied promise for something more. Anyone thinking otherwise is ascribing motives for which there is no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1636 "2010-08-24T17:10:12Z")
\*\*Vote Count: AstralRejection(1): Redskeezix SpecialEd(2): Chronos, Chipacabra, Chipacabra(10): Hoopy, Gadarene, Drainbead, Nanook, Specialed, Cucuy, Oneandonly, Guiri, USCDiver, Snickers Meeko(1): Pleonast Hoopy(1): Peeker Pleonast(1): Meeko\*\* ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1637 "2010-08-24T18:32:33Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > How likely is it that Mahaloth would’ve a) not explicitly told a mason he (or she) was a mason and b) given a vanilla townie a role of Treebeard. I mean, it’s Treebeard - the weirdest being in LOTR. While I need to catch up and then rerad, I can’t let this pass. Treebeard (indeed all the Ents) were part of the development of the World that Is, as originally sung by the Ainur and built by the long labours of the Valar and their lesser helpers the Maiar. If you want weird, then look no further than the Old Forest, where we find Tom Bombadil, of whom it was said (by Tom!) > [@](#): > > Bright blue his jacket is > And his boots are yellow Now _that’s_ weird. And if the colour scheme wasn’t bad enough, Tolkien never really explained where Tom came from, what he was doing there or how he fitted into Eru’s grand plan. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1638 "2010-08-24T18:35:32Z")
\*\* 1.Are all votes given the same weight? 2.Can some players hold more than one vote? 3.Are there private votes? 4.Do you calculate your vote math based in part on private votes? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1639 "2010-08-24T18:43:46Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > **Pleo** , it’s not really possible for anyone to fish you, since you’ve already leapt out of the water and into the boat on your own. Fishing is trying to find out who the power roles are. You’ve already said you’re a power role; now we’re just trying to find out _what_ power role you are, which is a reasonable pro-Town activity. You have in fact promised us something, in your very first post: To claim a power role is to claim that there’s something you have to contribute. We’re just trying to get you to say _what_ you’re promising. This is the kind of reaction you should expect when your very first post to the game is a power role claim, and if you didn’t want this sort of reaction, you shouldn’t have done that. > > I completely disagree. > > Searching for power roles is one type of fishing. But asking for revealing information from a power role is also fishing. For example, asking a claimed Mason about the total number of Masons is fishing. If an investigator says someone is town but refuses to say what role, demanding they reveal the role is fishing. **Meeko** (and **Snickers** ) asking me for revealing information is fishing. > > I also disagree that revealing information is necessarily a “reasonable pro-Town activity”. That is impossible for anyone not in possession of the information to judge. Some information is better kept secret until the conditions are favorable. You yourself are holding back information. > > A claim of a power role is either a statement of fact or a lie. There is no implied promise for something more. Anyone thinking otherwise is ascribing motives for which there is no evidence. **Chornos** , you are fast becoming my second favorite Mafia player. [BigT, if you ware reading this, fair warning my man.] **Pleonast** , again, " This " on what Chronos has said here. I would like to think that I’m less enigmatic on my statements as my play progresses throughout all games. But sometimes there will always be that one person who says the things in a way that fail you when you need to say them. The problem inherent with your tactic **Pleonast** , is that you are in effect playing both sides. But, as you put it, it is either fact or lie. I’m still betting " Lie ". If it is not " Lie " you could present the fact in one are all ways, and then we could progress. But, if you are gaining townie cred based on a lie, someone, if not all of us, need to take you to task on it. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1640 "2010-08-24T18:53:12Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > **peeker** , why did you assume I was either “dick” or “rb” (or maybe “vote changer”)? \ well with a dead doc i guess you could be another protector but i find that unlikely. so the other two “normal” power roles would be either dick or rb. and since most of the vote anomolies have merely been a function of mod counting i don’t see how the vote changing thing would be working out. and with this whole vanilla vt nonsense i am kind of assuming that not everyon is a power role. so i guess you could be a chia bingo master for all i know but i find that unlikely as well. so it doesn’t seem like much of a leap for you to be either a dick or rb. now, of course, you could be claiming a scum power role but that kind of seems silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=83)