# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 83
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1641 "2010-08-24T18:58:59Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > I’m still betting " Lie ". If it is not " Lie " you could present the fact in one are all ways, and then we could progress. That is an acceptable accusation, since it simply states your opinion of me without misrepresenting anything I’ve done or said. Nor does it make pro-scum demands of me. Unfortunately, that is not what you did earlier, where you demanded I reveal information and then voted me for pointing out your demands were anti-town. > [@](#): > > But, if you are gaining townie cred based on a lie, someone, if not all of us, need to take you to task on it. Anyone who thinks I’m gaining townie cred is a fool, either for thinking an empty claim has any townie value or for thinking I’ve somehow avoided attention by making it. Quite simply, players ( **Meeko** , **peekercpa** ) accusing me of having “townie cred” are trying to build a case against me for taking an unpopular tactic. A tactic that has gained me no positive attention and plenty of negative. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1642 "2010-08-24T18:59:17Z")
Oooohhh wait, **MHaye** , you’re right. I completely mixed up Treebeard and Tom Bombadil. Tom Bombadil’s the goofy one; Treebeard not that bad of a vanilla townie role. Given that, it’s not completely off the wall, and might not be a cover for **Chipacabra**. I apologize. I need to heed my own internal advice of thinking more, posting less. I’m really sorry if I’ve steered anyone wrong; please disregard my post in #1628. I don’t know if it’s enough to take my vote off **Chip**. I need to think more. (Clearly.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1643 "2010-08-24T19:08:38Z")
**peeker** , to be fair, there are plenty of other possible Town roles. Vigilantes aren’t exactly rare, even given that we had only one kill last night (the simplest explanation being that a vig could have held his fire). There’s also masons (we can’t completely rule out the possibility), Scotsmen of various sorts, inventors (many one-shot powers), investigative roles other than Detectives (watchers, trackers, etc.), governors (able to pardon the person being lynched), and probably a bunch more I haven’t thought of. Several of these, in fact, are more common than someone who’s able to tamper with the vote somehow, so I’m not sure why you fixated on that specifically. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1644 "2010-08-24T20:38:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **peeker** , to be fair, there are plenty of other possible Town roles. Vigilantes aren’t exactly rare, even given that we had only one kill last night (the simplest explanation being that a vig could have held his fire). There’s also masons (we can’t completely rule out the possibility), Scotsmen of various sorts, inventors (many one-shot powers), investigative roles other than Detectives (watchers, trackers, etc.), governors (able to pardon the person being lynched), and probably a bunch more I haven’t thought of. Several of these, in fact, are more common than someone who’s able to tamper with the vote somehow, so I’m not sure why you fixated on that specifically. absolutely, i understand that **chronos**. but i don’t make him to be a vig with me still alive toDay based on the statement that if he were one he would take me out if he were. and i totally understand that there are many different exotic roles and that with the size of our group that any of these could come into play. but with what i figure to be five scum and probably a third party or two. that still only leaves about 14 openings. and because we have this propensity for sharing pm stuff i count at least 5 or so nillers. and there are probably others that haven’t been so open. and i just figure that there has got to be a town dick and town rb (kind of standard) there are not a whole heck of a lot of slots left. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1645 "2010-08-24T20:41:04Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Quite simply, players ( **Meeko** , **peekercpa** ) accusing me of having “townie cred” are trying to build a case against me for taking an unpopular tactic. A tactic that has gained me no positive attention and plenty of negative. \ kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1646 "2010-08-24T21:34:27Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > Quite simply, players ( **Meeko** , **peekercpa** ) accusing me of having “townie cred” are trying to build a case against me for taking an unpopular tactic. A tactic that has gained me no positive attention and plenty of negative. > > kettle. Huh? I don’t think I’ve accused anyone of trying to get townie cred. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1647 "2010-08-24T21:37:28Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > what i was merely observing was that it follows canon. additionally, if i were to follow canon i would think that boromir would most likely be the not town. but the addiditional kind of half ass information that **ed** has shared makes me a little more convinced. now could i be wrong? youbetcha, but at this point i feel an **ed** lynch makes no sense. now if we get to three handed with a confirmed townie **ed** and myself you can pretty much bet i am voting **ed** regardless of the canonical implications of fratracide. I am suddenly struck with the thought that you may be half-right. Maybe we are linked as siblings or lovers (or both, really, the term in mafia is interchangeable) And that if I die you do too. But that doesn’t give us the same alignment, you could as easily be Boromir and 3rd party or Scum. In fact, if I were more confident in this fact, I’d be much more willing to die 😃 (still catching up) ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1648 "2010-08-24T21:39:30Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > How likely is it that Mahaloth would’ve a) not explicitly told a mason he (or she) was a mason and b) given a vanilla townie a role of Treebeard. I mean, it’s Treebeard - the weirdest being in LOTR. > > Treebeard? Really? Seems like a total cover for scum. He really wasn’t all that weird. A tree brought to sentience by elves. meh ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1649 "2010-08-24T21:42:55Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Suffice to say, I feel this game is sideways, eight ways to Sunday. You’ve no idea how much I hate this completely meaningless statement. How many games have you played in that haven’t been sideways? At what point do you learn that maybe it’s you that’s sideways and not every single game? > [@Meeko](#): > > I look forward to what I can do in the next Mafia game\*. How about you start looking at this game. You know, the one we’re actually playing. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1650 "2010-08-24T21:51:32Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > blah blah blah I want to comment that it seems you’re irritated that people keep commenting on your comments for which you specifically requested no comments. Most of us understand that. Maybe your gambit in claiming a power role was a gambit to have Scum outed because why on Earth would it irritate a Townie, but I think you’ve failed. Maybe your goal was to point out how anti-Town it is to comment on something so obviously unworthy of commenting. Hell, honestly, I don’t what your goal was. And, in many of my posts, I try to be entertaining if not enlightening as to the game, I’m not sure what your point was. To say something and then just let it drop? It does sorta beg the question, “why say it” but, Now I’m starting to get a picture. You’re playing the role of the Indignant Townie. Casting an aspersion on anyone who draws any attention to you. I don’t not like it. Not one little bit. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1651 "2010-08-24T21:55:58Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@peekercpa](#): > > > > kettle. > > Huh? I don’t think I’ve accused anyone of trying to get townie cred. it was more directed towards the “unpopular tactic” portion of your post. i guess i should have snipped it to be more direct. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1652 "2010-08-24T22:03:52Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > blah blah blah > > I want to comment that it seems you’re irritated that people keep commenting on your comments for which you specifically requested no comments. Most of us understand that. > > Maybe your gambit in claiming a power role was a gambit to have Scum outed because why on Earth would it irritate a Townie, but I think you’ve failed. > > Maybe your goal was to point out how anti-Town it is to comment on something so obviously unworthy of commenting. > > Hell, honestly, I don’t what your goal was. And, in many of my posts, I try to be entertaining if not enlightening as to the game, I’m not sure what your point was. To say something and then just let it drop? > > It does sorta beg the question, “why say it” but, Now I’m starting to get a picture. You’re playing the role of the Indignant Townie. Casting an aspersion on anyone who draws any attention to you. I don’t not like it. Not one little bit. (Out of game: be careful about how you quoted me. I don’t want any of us drawing the wrath of a SDMB mod for violating board rules.) You apparently didn’t actually read the exchange. I could care less what others comment on. **Meeko** (and **Snickers** ), however, crossed over the line of commenting and into what I believe is anti-town fishing. And I have not cast aspersions on anyone who’s commented or draw attention to me. See **DrainBead** ’s comment, for example. I only attack those who use anti-town tactics. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1653 "2010-08-24T22:07:50Z")
**ed** says it so much more eloquently than i do. because this is the way i read **pleo** thus far. i am _insert power role_ so let’s not talk about. additionally, i will not share anything regarding my _insert power role_ so let’s not talk about it. furthermore, if anyone wants to talk about my _insert power role_ i will look askance at them. and for sure, if anyone would like to seek any confirmation of my _insert power role_ that immediately makes them uber suspicious to me and my _insert power role_. and all good townies should trust me because i am _insert power role_. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1654 "2010-08-24T22:09:28Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > (Out of game: be careful about how you quoted me. I don’t want any of us drawing the wrath of a SDMB mod for violating board rules.) You’re right, I shall be more careful > [@Pleonast](#): > > And I have not cast aspersions on anyone who’s commented or draw attention to me. See **DrainBead** ’s comment, for example. I only attack those who use anti-town tactics. anti-Town tactics spurred on by your actions. And, honestly, these anti-Town behaviors should be expected after your actions. So, how anti-Town is it to engage in actions you know are highly likely to lead to anti-Town actions by other players even if they be Town? And how potentially pro-Scum is it to engage in actions that are likely to lead to Town players doing anti-Town things? All while approaching the situation with an _‘I didn’t do anything wrong. It’s all them’_ attitude? Or did you seriously think that a claim like yours would be ignored by every Town player? And did you really think so, even after how it’s been treated in previous games? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1655 "2010-08-24T22:53:33Z")
\*\*Unvote Chipacabra \*\* I’ve done some reviewing, and I’m less convinced that \*\*Chip \*\*is scum. On 8/17 at 2:59 PM (#774), he votes **Suburban Plankton** because of **Plankton** ’s “they’re all out to get me” wording. This vote stands until the next day at 2:36 PM (#930) when he unvotes after **Plankton** ’s claim (like many others did). He then votes \*\*Ed \*\*that night at 5:16 PM (#1005) because of what he saw as **Ed** ’s scummy handshake attempt to ID townie power roles and win condition trick with **Chronos**. In later posts, he mentions **Ed** ’s list and the fact that **Plankton** ’s claim came right off that list, postulating that \*\*Ed \*\*planted it to make **Plankton** ’s later claim seem acceptable. (I don’t really think this reasoning works, but meh). He also thinks that if \*\*Plankton \*\*really is an investigator, then he deserves some time. While I don’t agree with all of **Chip** ’s reasonings, I don’t really see a scummy motivation behind them. I can see how he felt that **Ed** ’s handshake was more scummy than **Plankton** ’s “22 out to kill me” saying, and I can see the prudence behind waiting for \*\*Plankton \*\*to hang himself if he’s not town. It’s just an unfortunate coincidence that the timing of his votes makes him look worse. Maybe it was bad play, but I’m not going to string him up for that (I know I’m guilty of really bad play myself here). ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1656 "2010-08-24T23:06:36Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > i find **astral** ’s absence very concerning. in the past, when i have been scum, and either i or a mate started getting heat the typical strategy was along the lines of just shut up and hopefully they will go elsewhere. and typically it was up to your buds to get the focus someplace else while the suspect goes dormant. that’s where i am going fishing this morning. [Out of Game] No matter what I am - town, scum, or something else – I promise that I really did start my first day of my masters yesterday. That’s not some meta-game bullshit to throw you off my trail. This doesn’t exonerate me; I could still be scum benefitting from lying low, as far as you know, and I won’t pretend that this proves anything about my intentions. Just letting you know 🙂 [/Out of Game] Regarding Pleonast: I think it’s worth pointing out that when I was pointing out Pleo’s second role claim, the very first person to agree with me was Suburban Plankton. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > And there was this, spotted by **Astral Rejection** : > > > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > > Earlier I said I was going to disregard Pleo’s power claim, but in reviewing the thread I’ve seen something that gives me pause. On page 5, post #244, Pleo says > > I thought his comment earlier was a one-off, but he’s been repeatedly asserting his power status. This seems really suspicious to me. If I had a power role, I’d be keeping quiet about it this early in the game. The only pro-town motivation I can see is that (if he’s vanilla) he’ll draw scum fire and his death will protect any real power roles out there. > > > > I’ve got my eye on you, Pleo! 🙂 > > I had completely dismissed Pleonast’s initial claim, but this rather subtle second claim had escaped my notice . It does raise the question of why Pleo seems to be reasserting a power role. Earlier, I was more suspicious of \*\*Chronos \*\* role claim; now I’ve gone the other way. This doesn’t clear him, as I still don’t understand why he’s posting the way he is, but it does move him slightly more in the “town” category for me. It seems to me a scummy SP would be happy to attach himself to smudging a town player, and he could hide behind the fact that _I_ had brought it up later if he needed to. Your mileage may vary, but I’m going to be looking elsewhere for now. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1657 "2010-08-24T23:29:12Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > anti-Town tactics spurred on by your actions. And, honestly, these anti-Town behaviors should be expected after your actions. > > So, how anti-Town is it to engage in actions you know are highly likely to lead to anti-Town actions by other players even if they be Town? Drawing out anti-town behavior is a good thing. I don’t know about you, but I am trying to find scum. You know, the players more likely to do anti-town things. > [@](#): > > And how potentially pro-Scum is it to engage in actions that are likely to lead to Town players doing anti-Town things? All while approaching the situation with an _‘I didn’t do anything wrong. It’s all them’_ attitude? So, who are these townies who’ve been misled into playing anti-town by me? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1658 "2010-08-24T23:57:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I can see how he felt that Ed’s handshake was more scummy than Plankton’s “22 out to kill me” saying… Also note that, in retrospect, the “22 out to get me” thing obviously can’t be taken literally, since we now know that **Plankton** was not, in fact, a third party. If he’d said “18 out to get me”, or the like, then that’d have been a whopper of a Scum tell, but as it was, it must really have been hyperbole or hysterical paranoia. So it’s not very good evidence against those folks who did, in fact, interpret it as hyperbole or hysterical paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1659 "2010-08-25T01:19:04Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > \*\*Unvote Chipacabra > \*\* > I’ve done some reviewing, and I’m less convinced that \*\*Chip \*\*is scum. > > On 8/17 at 2:59 PM (#774), he votes **Suburban Plankton** because of **Plankton** ’s “they’re all out to get me” wording. This vote stands until the next day at 2:36 PM (#930) when he unvotes after **Plankton** ’s claim (like many others did). He then votes \*\*Ed \*\*that night at 5:16 PM (#1005) because of what he saw as **Ed** ’s scummy handshake attempt to ID townie power roles and win condition trick with **Chronos**. In later posts, he mentions **Ed** ’s list and the fact that **Plankton** ’s claim came right off that list, postulating that \*\*Ed \*\*planted it to make **Plankton** ’s later claim seem acceptable. (I don’t really think this reasoning works, but meh). He also thinks that if \*\*Plankton \*\*really is an investigator, then he deserves some time. > > While I don’t agree with all of **Chip** ’s reasonings, I don’t really see a scummy motivation behind them. I can see how he felt that **Ed** ’s handshake was more scummy than **Plankton** ’s “22 out to kill me” saying, and I can see the prudence behind waiting for \*\*Plankton \*\*to hang himself if he’s not town. It’s just an unfortunate coincidence that the timing of his votes makes him look worse. > > Maybe it was bad play, but I’m not going to string him up for that (I know I’m guilty of really bad play myself here). But looking for Scum motivation in the voting is telling. If Chip is Scum, he needs some reason to unvote him and vote me. The planned claim could have been made all along. He can make up a weak reason to vote me (the 2nd place guy). And an investigator is an easier claim to fake in my opinion. A weak ass limited investigator even more so. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1660 "2010-08-25T01:24:50Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > anti-Town tactics spurred on by your actions. And, honestly, these anti-Town behaviors should be expected after your actions. > > > > So, how anti-Town is it to engage in actions you know are highly likely to lead to anti-Town actions by other players even if they be Town? > > Drawing out anti-town behavior is a good thing. I don’t know about you, but I am trying to find scum. You know, the players more likely to do anti-town things. But acting in a way that should be anticipated to lead Town players to act in anti-Town ways is anti-Town. See, you had it backwards. You claimed the Scum could WiFoM and the Town could ignore it. But isn’t it just as much WiFoM for inquisitive Town, and couldn’t the Scum just ignore it as meaningless? So, I’m alleging that you engaged in behavior that made it easier for Town to do anti-Town things. It would be a great move as Scum. It’s actually not dissimilar to the case against me. That in my over zealous actions, I got Vanilla Town to out themselves thereby helping the Scum. And the Scum could easily ignore me or join in (if they had the PM) as they saw fit. It wasn’t my intention, and it may not have been yours, but the end result is the same. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And how potentially pro-Scum is it to engage in actions that are likely to lead to Town players doing anti-Town things? All while approaching the situation with an _‘I didn’t do anything wrong. It’s all them’_ attitude? > > So, who are these townies who’ve been misled into playing anti-town by me? I don’t know. I’m saying the behavior you engaged in was likely to cause Town to act that way. And you should have known so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=82) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=84)