# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1701 "2010-08-25T23:18:38Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Meeko and I had this discussion long ago. He wants to know what his optimal play is. And then he wants to make it. > > If it were poker, one could calculate the odds that a particular play would work and use that information to make a play (betting, folding, bluffing, etc) > > But this is mafia, and much like real life, one doesn’t have the information necessary to make that decision. So you do what you think might be best. Some play conservatively, trying to optimize their information and tactics. Some play a more risky game hoping for big rewards. Some just wing it. I don’t remember having that conversation, but you hit the nail on the head. \*\* You are going to stand there and fault me for wanting to be as expedient as possible?\*\* I’m obviously not the best Mafia player, but I don’t think you will win Mafia by tying one hand behind your back. Luck of the draw SHOULD NOT win over skill in the long term. It is. Come join us for poker tomorrow night. I’m sure my 15th place finish will prove that Poker is more like Mafia [by your above definition] than you think it is. Then again, I’ve had issues with the Bluffing frequency in our Thursday night game. If memory serves, Skeezix can [and probably will] come in after this and clarify. **FTR :** I defined sideways as being parts of the game that aren’t reduced to their simplest terms, and those terms being communicated to all players, in a standardized and fixed ratio. The ratio being what the power roles (and scum) **get to know** , and what VT **are told.** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1702 "2010-08-25T23:27:59Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > **Meeko** , it looks to me that you’re more complaining about the fact that this is not an open rules set game. That is, the rules for this game are more or less secret. I do not like secret rules games in general, but I’m pretty much the only moderator who regularly runs open games, so I’m stuck playing closed games. > > Next time I run a game, I’ll try to remember to send you a PM to let you know. There will still be an unequal information distribution–that’s inherent to any Mafia game. But at least you will know the parameters my game operates within. > > I think too many Mafia game designers and moderators rely on hidden roles and mechanics, when it’s simply not necessary for a good game. > > But back to this game, I’m still voting for you because of your anti-town play. 😃 I ran Colorless on here as a completely open game. I’m not opposed to them, and find them enjoyable. I suppose they would make the game less sideways to Meeko. But, I also enjoy closed games. They make the game less known and maybe more ‘sideways’ but that’s part of the fun of it. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1703 "2010-08-25T23:28:34Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > **Meeko** , it looks to me that you’re more complaining about the fact that this is not an open rules set game. \*\*Something I have no problem owning. THIS. \*\* I was NEVER clear on what Open V. Closed was. It just seems to be something that apparently those who get to have experience in games, eventually comes by. I think it’s a perfect storm : 1. Closed game 2. Signing up for a game before knowing the Color 3. Having that color make demands on players beyond having just watched the movies once, and trying to slog through reading the books. [I’m not even sure where The Hobbit fits into all of this, but I stopped reading it soon after the definition of Elevenses\*.] 4.Having the game “Start” before the start [Did the game start on Night 0 or on Day 1?] 5.Having play styles that kicked the game into turbo, as soon as possible. 6.Having those play styles have more information [Either handed by Mod, or by simply knowing the canon better than others.] 7.Being VT doesn’t help. Indeed, my space here for this game is limited. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1704 "2010-08-25T23:33:59Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > **Meeko** , it looks to me that you’re more complaining about the fact that this is not an open rules set game. > > \*\*Something I have no problem owning. > > THIS. \*\* > > I was NEVER clear on what Open V. Closed was. It just seems to be something that apparently those who get to have experience in games, eventually comes by. > > I think it’s a perfect storm : > > 1. Closed game > 2. Signing up for a game before knowing the Color > 3. Having that color make demands on players beyond having just watched the movies once, and trying to slog through reading the books. [I’m not even sure where The Hobbit fits into all of this, but I stopped reading it soon after the definition of Elevenses\*.] > 4.Having the game “Start” before the start [Did the game start on Night 0 or on Day 1?] > 5.Having play styles that kicked the game into turbo, as soon as possible. > 6.Having those play styles have more information [Either handed by Mod, or by simply knowing the canon better than others.] > 7.Being VT doesn’t help. > > Indeed, my space here for this game is limited. I don’t think the game demands a knowledge of the color. Sure, maybe some of the discussion goes over your head, but I’ve played plenty of games that way. I remember being a guy called Moist in Dr Horrible. I had no idea of the canon. I read a little bit on it. I played my role (50% roleblocker who failed while trying to roleblock the guy who was killing me, thanks, storyteller), but I still had fun even though I had no idea what was going on. (Granted less fun once I was dead) ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1705 "2010-08-25T23:34:00Z")
NETA: Just realize I didn’t refer back to my Asterisk. - I have attempted to read MANY, MANY books. I could name the books I have read, and the books I have started, and put aside for one reason or another. It would not surprise me if the “didn’t finish” book list is two or three times longer than the “finished” list. I went far in Ender’s Game, but I stalled out on Shadow of the Giant. Goodkind, Orwell, Iles, Herbert weren’t so lucky. Rand and Gibson even less so. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1706 "2010-08-25T23:35:42Z")
NETA\< and the game will always have playstyle issues. I know some people don’t like how I play or how you play. I hope it never got to the point where they would not want to play if I were in a game, and I do try to make changes to my playstyle to accommodate them, but I’m not going to make big changes. So, you either deal with it or you don’t. I’m sure it’s the same way in poker. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1707 "2010-08-25T23:40:18Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > You just answered your own question. If you think that **Pleonast** is getting more of a pass than he should, then the way you play the game is by voting for him (which you’re already doing), and trying to convince others to vote for him, too. Meanwhile, other people vote for targets of their own, and try to convince you of their cases, and you evaluate their cases and see whether you think they’re better than your case on **Pleo** , and they do the same, and so on. That’s the way Mafia always works, and if that’s sideways, then sidewaysness is an inherent trait of the game. > > Meeko and I had this discussion long ago. He wants to know what his optimal play is. And then he wants to make it. > > If it were poker, one could calculate the odds that a particular play would work and use that information to make a play (betting, folding, bluffing, etc) > > But this is mafia, and much like real life, one doesn’t have the information necessary to make that decision. So you do what you think might be best. Some play conservatively, trying to optimize their information and tactics. Some play a more risky game hoping for big rewards. Some just wing it. very extraordinary obeservation. because in this game, much like poker, the correct play does not necessarily guarantee a positive outcome for the player. there are intangibles and that is why it is so fascinating to me. and i don’t want to give anyone a big head but … there are some pretty sharp folks that engage in this mode of entertainment. and to be honest that is half the fun. i don’t know whether to leave my wallet on the table and offer dinner or kick the lot of you out and call the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1708 "2010-08-25T23:42:26Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > But, I also enjoy closed games. They make the game less known and maybe more ‘sideways’ but that’s part of the fun of it. Unless when they aren’t. I’m certain this game started out balanced. Just the machine had a few more agitators in it once the cycle started, and the load spun out, and it got unbalanced. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1709 "2010-08-25T23:45:12Z")
neta: “the correct play” should read “the perceived (or calculated or statistically most positive) correct play”. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1710 "2010-08-25T23:45:20Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > because in this game, much like poker, the correct play does not necessarily guarantee a positive outcome for the player. there are intangibles and that is why it is so fascinating to me. No Peeker, the correct play is worthless. FULL STOP. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1711 "2010-08-25T23:45:45Z")
Quoth **ed** : > [@](#): > > And, of course, being the ever clever Scum that I am, I decided to use 2 cover roles all at once. Sure, why not? If the Scum got a number of cover roles equal to the number of players, then they’ve got a surplus one floating around, since **Plankton** didn’t use a cover name. Only one Scum needs to survive to win the game, so if using up two of them and making up a scenario about a mod mistake buys you some Town cred (which it looks like it has), then why not? Even if **Mahaloth** used the same trick this game that he did last game, of giving Scum one less cover role than there are Scum, then whoever’s the last Scum to claim could just wing it based on what others have claimed before him, and still have a decent chance of avoiding a counterclaim. And even if the person left without a claim gets caught at it, again, only one Scum needs to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1712 "2010-08-25T23:48:16Z")
And, if we are talking about weighing alternatives and taking risks, I’m just not sure that VT has any alternative at all. Simple, start a game with X VT, and then mod kill them a second after game start. Net result would be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1713 "2010-08-25T23:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless when they aren’t. I’m certain this game started out balanced. Just the machine had a few more agitators in it once the cycle started, and the load spun out, and it got unbalanced. All games (and by that I mean all games, period, not just Mafia games) eventually get unbalanced. That’s inherent in the nature of what a game is. After the Mudville Nine fell behind by two runs and got two outs, the game was very heavily unbalanced against Casey. It’s ludicrous to ask that a game never become unbalanced; that it start out balanced is all you can ever ask for. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1714 "2010-08-25T23:52:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **ed** : > > > [@](#): > > > > And, of course, being the ever clever Scum that I am, I decided to use 2 cover roles all at once. > > Sure, why not? If the Scum got a number of cover roles equal to the number of players, then they’ve got a surplus one floating around, since **Plankton** didn’t use a cover name. Only one Scum needs to survive to win the game, so if using up two of them and making up a scenario about a mod mistake buys you some Town cred (which it looks like it has), then why not? Even if **Mahaloth** used the same trick this game that he did last game, of giving Scum one less cover role than there are Scum, then whoever’s the last Scum to claim could just wing it based on what others have claimed before him, and still have a decent chance of avoiding a counterclaim. And even if the person left without a claim gets caught at it, again, only one Scum needs to survive. OK, I suppose that’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1715 "2010-08-25T23:54:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Unless when they aren’t. I’m certain this game started out balanced. Just the machine had a few more agitators in it once the cycle started, and the load spun out, and it got unbalanced. > > All games (and by that I mean all games, period, not just Mafia games) eventually get unbalanced. That’s inherent in the nature of what a game is. After the Mudville Nine fell behind by two runs and got two outs, the game was very heavily unbalanced against Casey. It’s ludicrous to ask that a game never become unbalanced; that it start out balanced is all you can ever ask for. Casey took the first two strikes, if memory serves. I would swing at every single pitch. I just feel like I barely got a ball thrown to me this game, much less the one pitch that VT gets. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1716 "2010-08-25T23:54:43Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > But, I also enjoy closed games. They make the game less known and maybe more ‘sideways’ but that’s part of the fun of it. > > Unless when they aren’t. I’m certain this game started out balanced. Just the machine had a few more agitators in it once the cycle started, and the load spun out, and it got unbalanced. How can you be sure of this? I think this is more frustration that you don’t understand what’s going in the game. Despite the fact that you aren’t supposed to. I mean, eventually the game must be unbalanced for one side or the other to win. But that happens through gameplay. It could be strategic or lucky, I suppose. But that’s part of games. > [@Meeko](#): > > And, if we are talking about weighing alternatives and taking risks, I’m just not sure that VT has any alternative at all. > > Simple, start a game with X VT, and then mod kill them a second after game start. > > Net result would be the same. This is silly. Are you saying that Vanilla Town cannot possibly win a game? I’ve played in all-Vanilla games, I’m quite sure it’s winnable. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1717 "2010-08-25T23:55:06Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > But, I also enjoy closed games. They make the game less known and maybe more ‘sideways’ but that’s part of the fun of it. > > Unless when they aren’t. I’m certain this game started out balanced. Just the machine had a few more agitators in it once the cycle started, and the load spun out, and it got unbalanced. most times games start with certain folks having more information than others. scum know who each other are, typically. masons typically know who other masons are. in this game **chronos** and **pleo** apparantly have information that i do not have. i am merely trying to figure out whether they are full of crap or telling the truth. if your only idea of mafia fun is having more or the same information that everyone else has then this is probably not the past time for you. matter of fact i kind of like being left in the dark a wee bit. that way when i kick some ass i get an additional degree of satisfaction. or would you rather the mod have no designated dick, for example and just post a random result periodically? that would leave out half the fun. or at least to me it would. is **chronos** , **pleo** , **chippy** , **ed** et al full of shit or are they telling the truth? crap at this point i truly don’t know. i have my own suppositions but they are merely mine. and if the mod were to intervene and say something along the lines of: “bullshit **pleo** is not a power role” what fun is there in that. that’s why we play this game **meeko** , or at least me anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1718 "2010-08-25T23:56:42Z")
But, whatever. I will just tell myself that I can possibly reset and get back on the horse for Day 3. It’s not a lie if you tell yourself it isn’t, right? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1719 "2010-08-25T23:58:01Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > > [@peekercpa](#): > > > > because in this game, much like poker, the correct play does not necessarily guarantee a positive outcome for the player. there are intangibles and that is why it is so fascinating to me. > > No Peeker, the correct play is worthless. FULL STOP. actually, **meeko** the correct play is **FULL SPEED AHEAD**. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1720 "2010-08-26T00:00:09Z")
I can understand where Meeko is coming from. This has been a fairly intimidating game from my perspective too, especially given that it’s my first game! I’ll admit I’ve had similar thoughts to his, and I’ve frequently been lost. Unlike Meeko, however, I’m really digging it. I came into this game expecting it to be a challenge, and you guys are far surpassing my expectations. As loathe as I am to give him a pass for an unnecessary claim, I can understand the frustration that made him post it. So, for now, it’s a null tell to me. I’ve been thinking about Chip, and it’s almost certain that he’s gonna swing. I can see the cases for his lynching, and they’re solid. But I can’t get over the suspicion that he’s a town player who made a bunch of careless statements. I’m about 80% sure he’s scum, which would be good enough, but I have a scummier target in mind. So where does this leave me? I’m going to **vote special ed.** I believe Telcontar’s death was a direct result of his handshaking, and I believe that his handshaking was created to fish out town power roles. I’m assuming that scum had a sample of the vanilla PM, and that he got exactly what he wanted. Two things cement this in my mind toDay. 1. As I’ve mentioned before, calling out Chronos was a scummy move. If **special ed** is town, I can’t suss out a reason for the semantic argument with somebody who had given the correct (and direct) answer to ed’s question. 2. I can’t accept his stated reason for screwing up the handshake. He admits he did it wrong, and offered up what he should have done instead. Except this isn’t his first attempt at handshaking; he made a big deal about how he’d done it **four times before.** I can’t understand his mistake in that light. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=85) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=87)