# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/161 "2010-08-12T11:19:28Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > This is the first Mafia game I’ve played in quite a while, so I have a question for \*\*Chronos \*\*and **special ed** , who I gather are frequent participants here… > > Are you guys always this verbose? \*\* Really?\*\* I didn’t get this one? Wow. That being said, my participation will take a hit until August 20. Very busy week for me, lot of Census work, very limited time window to do it in. * * * In hindsight, and I’m speaking up now, instead of later for this game – I always find first movers including those that offer “handshakes” and ““easy”” solutions suspect. I guess its more a matter of easy first targets and, low hanging fruit. We have it in spades, as **Ed** is already apparently trying to shake. [I figured it was a shake the moment I saw his letter math. I guess there are some benefits to being able to make ADHD type connections to things.] **Chronos** , REALLY?! are you REALLY going back to talk on voting records? I thought this was dead and gone for you. Your **voting program** from ancient history had better not make a return visit. \*\*That monstrosity was worse than a half dozen Peeker vigs. \*\* Other than that, I just get a sense that this game is stuck a gear, below first day voting right now. That will change in time. Guess I should give it that much. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/162 "2010-08-12T11:26:53Z")
NETA: For clarification I mean “In Hindsight” to cover my entire Mafia career, not just “this” game. If scum have to otherwise go out of there way to prove they are town, then I guess I object to that “out of there way” -ness. I would like to think it could stick out like a sore thumb. I would like to that a very easy attempt to hide the sore thumb could be made early on before the speed, investigations, FOS and “gotcha” can start. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/163 "2010-08-12T12:12:42Z")
Confirming receipt of PM. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/164 "2010-08-12T12:41:32Z")
Mahaloth’s last game actually had three fake names for four scum, not that that would have made a huge difference in the event of an early name claim. (Last one in line guesses.) My opinion: mass anything on day one (or night zero) is as likely to hurt as to help, or the mod is an idiot, and Mahaloth’s not an idiot. On a personal level, I dislike early mass claims because they change the direction of discussion from “who’s acting scummy” to “whose claim is not plausible”, and the latter is not nearly as much fun for me. About Chronos’ “lynch the anti-town” thing, I hate it, personally. If I had a nickel for every policy vote or “he’s not helping us/he’s distracting us, therefore he has to go” vote placed by scum, I’d have a lot of nickels. I don’t want to make it even easier for them to get away with that sort of crap. I WILL vote for the anti-town, however, if there’s no vig evident (or if the vig is not removing those players himself) and if it’s bad enough. It’s rarely an easy call for me, but I will do it. As I’ve said previously, I do not believe that the usual peeker/Meeko style of play is anti-town. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/165 "2010-08-12T13:10:21Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > **Is recruitment a possibility in this game?** No comment. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/166 "2010-08-12T13:34:03Z")
Confirming. If this game is anything like Mahaloth’s previous one, I can’t see much benefit in a name claim now, just lots of risks. > [@Chronos](#): > > Consider that last game, everyone was convinced that I was Scummy, because they saw Scum motivation in what I was saying. /snip If you’re referring to Harry Potter, I don’t remember it the same way (and I certainly wasn’t convinced you were scummy…). You made a statement about the make-up of the scum team and were accused of PIS (by scum of course). Most of the players who voted for you didn’t bother to look for scum motivation as you appeared to have made a slip. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/167 "2010-08-12T13:40:26Z")
i am responding as i read along so if i duplicate something that has already been said, sorry and tough shit. **nanook** , i was being a smart ass about the name claim. some soul always seems to want to be half pregnant. let’s not claim roles let’s just claim name instead, type of attitude. i think that is kind of ridiculous. very seldom does the name you are assigned strictly follow canon. which is to some extent, while although i appreciate the color, i seldom do more than just skim it. and i agree with you that the population of this particular universe is so large with large contingents of bad and good components that scum have an endless supply of characters to fall back on even if canon was being strictly followed. while a truthful claiming townie could very well have been given an “evil” name or one that is kind hermaphroditic. @ed, the sauron comment made me chuckle. plus when in the hell did we come up with the @ thingy. was it at the convention? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/168 "2010-08-12T13:56:25Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > > [@special\_ed](#): > > > > Lying about what? And, I can think of a fourth option. > > > > Either Special Ed is lying or Chronos is lying. > > Both are lying. > > Both are telling the truth. > > > > So, care to be less cryptic? I thought we were mostly discussing scum hunting strategy anyway. How could we be lying? I mean, I understand how he’s wrong, but he’s not lying. > > I was responding to Chronos’s post immediately before mine. > > The question is who, if anyone, is lying about the existence or lack thereof of a win condition section in their PM. The third obvious answer is that Chronos and Special Ed are operating on different definitions of what a win condition section is. Maybe the that’s the question. Or maybe the question is “Were all the pm’s written uniquely, as to foil any attempts at handshakes?” I would say that the answer is maybe. Since Mahaloth has come and gone since the handshake attempt went down, and hasn’t posted any winconditions or sample PMs, I’m going to make the assumption that he closed that window of opportunity long before he even sent out the role PMs. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/169 "2010-08-12T14:03:43Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Sometimes, it is difficult or impossible to discern Scum motivation. Sometimes, it’s possible. > > It’s an oversimplification and an error to say it’s equivalent to “Scum wouldn’t do that.” In fact, it really has nothing to do with what Scum would or wouldn’t do. \ this. in ragnorak all of the scum piled on the town vig at the last minute to get him lynched. the motivation was pure and simple remove a threat. but there were plenty of folks that kind of thought “scum would never do something that overt”. uh yeh, we fucking did and the motivation was pretty clear in hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/170 "2010-08-12T14:06:03Z")
Confirmed. I think that voting for anti-town actions is a good policy but we need to make sure that the actions really hurt the town more then they help. Take Peeker for instance, he’s been lynched in the past for being a distraction but his stirring of the post did generate a lot of discussion which is good for town. I think that we need to look at the sum of their actions not just a single on when deciding anti-town. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/171 "2010-08-12T14:11:10Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I will agree, something that hurts the Town benefits the Scum. \ the problem is defining what “hurts the town”. typically you would think that purposely creating a modkill of a townie isn’t the wisest course of action. but as has been noted by others wiser than myself that when it gets down to a relatively small unconfirmed pool that having a townine self immolate is often a wise decision even if it “hurts the town”. now folks will come back with “well ultimately that helps the town”. but i say pshaw, once again the anti town equals scum argument is basically a judgement call. and **chronos** i understand your viewpoint about meaningless posts and fluff (jeebus i was scum with **ed** and he basically posted the entire wikipedia site). so much so that they went back post Day and deleted all his posts. but i believe that even fluff poses a danger to scum. wasn’t in recruitment that the scum godfather gave himself away because of Night fluff post? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/172 "2010-08-12T14:36:59Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I, for one, don’t have a win condition section in my role PM. maybe you have already explained this. and if so i didn’t catch it. so you want to pull some sort of half ass handshake, right? but you don’t have a wincon. seems inconsistent. ok, here’s my list of a noes this is too easy. 1. lynch all liars - this is a good general rule to follow but once again must be judged in the context where the “lie” is made. 2. anti town = scum - ok this horse has been dug up and beaten again. can we put in the grave for the final time and just agree that we need to disagree. because my favorite snack of peanuts might be fatal to you doesn’t make me scum. 3. scum would never do that - uh this was has been debunked both in theory and in practice 4. ask opal - just for good measure. now the one policy that i will follow pretty strictly (but once again with some wiggle room) is lynch the lurker. and i want to make this durn clear to the **nanooks** and **chronos** of the world. lurking is not defined by quantity. conversely, not lurking is also not defined by quantity. lurking (non participation?) has become a disturbing trend in these games, in my opinion. and to be honest even i had to vote for a teammate (fellow scum, mason, etc.) because they just weren’t playing - then off with their heads. because lurking is the gravest sin of all. it’s ANTI GAME. and i have not looked at the final player list but there were some names that i saw that i don’t recognize. the only thing i can suggest is get in there and start doing something - anything. i mean you wouldn’t take a vacation to paris just to watch cable and eat room service. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/173 "2010-08-12T14:40:49Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Though, I fear if more people espouse Chronos’ strategy, I’ll be lynched because it does seem to be a lynch the loud strategy since they are the ones more likely to do more anti-Town things. \ pulls **ed** to the side of the room and says: “i feel your pain”. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/174 "2010-08-12T14:44:13Z")
Confirmed. My role pm meets special Ed’s handshake I’ll add 6 Y’s to the pile ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/175 "2010-08-12T14:46:42Z")
Confirm receipt of my role PM. I have a Townie power role. Trying to catch up everything. Don’t you guys ever sleep? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/176 "2010-08-12T14:48:33Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Looks like the ball is already rolling in this game! > > Confirming I got my role PM. > > At work so only done a quick read-through: > > 1. Looks like we don’t get a public role PM since \*\*Mahaloth \*\*posted since \*\*Ed \*\*asked for it. So that probably means scum has reasonable covers and the handshake idea doesn’t seem too useful in that light I’m still mulling over the handshake thing. The fact that **special ed** and **Chronos** apparently both got the message “You win when all threats to the Alliance of Light have been destroyed.”\* means that (1) they’re both Town; or (2) **Mahaloth** included the phrase in non-Town role PMs as well.\*\* The only thing it does tell us, I guess, is that at least some role PMs contain at least some of the same sentences, which seems to answer **Red’s** question about whether all role PMs were written uniquely. \*(As did I – that was a c&p) \*\*(Frankly, I don’t buy **Chronos’s** contention that someone could easily guess the phrase without having received it – unless **Mahaloth’s** past win conditions have all been exactly “You win when all threats to the \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ have been destroyed,” it seems utterly implausible. Which is why I still can’t understand why **Chronos** would just blurt it out like that – if he’s Town, he doesn’t know whether or not Scum had that sentence in their PM, so there’s no pro-Town benefit to revealing it before anyone had had a chance to respond to **ed’s** handshake. But if he’s Scum, then he presumably _can_ assume (can’t he?) that all Scum had that sentence in their PM as a cover or whatever, so there’s no discernible pro-Scum benefit to revealing it etc. I need to think about this some more, and I’d welcome additional clarification from **Chronos** about his thought process.) > [@](#): > > 1. That goes also for a mass claim. In the last game by Mahaloth all scum were had scummy roles names (but they had three cover roles for three scum) and town power roles were tied to good character names but some good lead character were also vanilla. > So based on that I lean against a mass claim (because it might force a hobbit, Gandalf, etc to claim or false claim as town) but a lynch of a claimed lesser role seems more save (less chance to be a town power while bit more likely to be a cover role). The last might not be true if the cover roles in Harry Potter were lead characters - I don’t think so but I don’t know HP enough to say that for sure. This is why I think mass claiming would be a downright terrible idea. I know that I, for one, have a character name taken from the books – as opposed to some made-up name designed to sound Lord of the Rings-y, like Robin Powderbottom or Glaurfil the Elder or somesuch. In light of the HP game – in which the names of the characters generally corresponded to (a) whether they were likely to be a power role and, if so, (b) what kind of powers they were likely to have (think Harry, Dumbledore, and Snape especially) – I think it’s reasonable to assume that all the major names are out there, as well as some more supporting characters (this is a fairly big player pool, isn’t it? 23 players has to mean a decent number of vanillas). It’s similarly pretty reasonable to assume that between Gandalf and, I dunno, Faramir, the former is more likely to be a power role – and an important power role – than the latter. For that reason, it seems clear to me that a mass name claim risks giving Scum valuable information about roles, and I see absolutely no reason why we should do that on Night Zero/Day One. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/177 "2010-08-12T14:50:04Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Snipped > > On a personal level, I dislike early mass claims because they change the direction of discussion from “who’s acting scummy” to “whose claim is not plausible”, and the latter is not nearly as much fun for me. > > Snipped > > As I’ve said previously, I do not believe that the usual peeker/Meeko style of play is anti-town. The first looks like more sore thumb smoothing / blending in as I said just before NP entered the game proper. And then he goes and _ **possibly** _ tries to snuggle me. \*\* +1 + -1 =\*\* I’m not sure what to make of the grand total. I could take either or both of the above comments as negative, or positive, or a mixed bag. I follow the line or reasoning that we should play the game as given, and not create one out of thin air. Yes, you could play Poker with a Rook deck, But it wouldn’t translate fully\*. There is a reason why this game is Mafia and NOT To Tell The Truth\*\*. [\*But boy, the extra 2-3 ranks would make for some interesting debates on “Nuts” or not.] [\*\* I would love to see To Tell The Truth with non-vanilla roles. "You thought you wrote down a 3, but during the night, someone came into your home and spilled ink over your vote, making it look like a REALLY wonky 2.] \*\*That’s not to say that a lot of the game is catching people in lies and other PIS. I’m just saying that I believe we short change much of the game, much as **Normal** has said above, if we forget most of what makes Mafia, Mafia. \*\* Again, Mixed bag here, but I felt I needed to chime in. A good example of my Paranoia, I guess. Thanks a Lot **Ed** , I doubt I will ever conceive of my playing abillities in Mafia as being non-paranoid. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/178 "2010-08-12T14:51:06Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Confirm receipt of my role PM. I have a Townie power role. NETA: Why in the world would you say this? (Partially a sincere question, since the last couple of days are the first time I’ve given any thought to Mafia strategy in three years, so there may be commonly accepted wheels within wheels for this kind of thing that I’m not seeing.) ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/179 "2010-08-12T14:55:36Z")
Ed’s handshake said “in the last section”. That one sentence does not fulfill all the letter requirements. It may still be a goer. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/180 "2010-08-12T14:58:10Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > Confirmed. > > My role pm meets special Ed’s handshake > > I’ll add 6 Y’s to the pile I’m only counting 5 Y’s, and I’ve gone over it a bunch of times to make sure. How many Us and Cs, **Wanderers**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=10)