# Lord of the Rings Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867 "2010-08-10T19:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 94
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1861 "2010-08-28T20:09:44Z")
**Ok. So I’m totally not clear if I have to do this next part…** \*\* Unvote All\*\* **Vote Ed** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1862 "2010-08-28T20:15:00Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > I’m mobile. Sucks on death.[B] Vote ed\*\* for handshake failure and the misleading talk on the tree guy thing leading to mis lynch. OK, I understand that the handshake failed. Not sure why that makes me Scum, but what was my misleading talk? Are you voting me because I was wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1863 "2010-08-28T20:16:44Z")
By the way, when **peeker** quoted me, a spurious “and if” popped up in the middle of the quote. I’m guessing that must be some sort of weird editing error on his part, because it’s not in what I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1864 "2010-08-28T20:16:54Z")
Just in case you missed it, **Mahaloth, what were Aragorn’s special objects?** / ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1865 "2010-08-28T20:23:29Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > I am Treebeard. > [@Snickers](#): > > Treebeard? Really? Seems like a total cover for scum. > [@special\_ed](#): > > > [@Snickers](#): > > > > How likely is it that Mahaloth would’ve a) not explicitly told a mason he (or she) was a mason and b) given a vanilla townie a role of Treebeard. I mean, it’s Treebeard - the weirdest being in LOTR. > > > > Treebeard? Really? Seems like a total cover for scum. > > He really wasn’t all that weird. A tree brought to sentience by elves. meh > [@Meeko](#): > > I’m mobile. Sucks on death. \ for handshake failure and the misleading talk on the tree guy thing leading to mis lynch. Ok, looks like I got a Snickers quote down as an Ed quote. Let me think for a second. \*\*Nope. Still voting Ed. \*\* When does the failed Handshake make Ed Scum MVP? Assume for argument he is town, Even so, we must as town vote for the person being the most anti-town, correct? Again, assuming Ed is Town. Which, I’m not so sure about. Obviously. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1866 "2010-08-28T20:28:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > By the way, when **peeker** quoted me, a spurious “and if” popped up in the middle of the quote. I’m guessing that must be some sort of weird editing error on his part, because it’s not in what I posted. probably something to do with the way my keyboard skips around. my bad. there was certainly no intent to “edit” someone else’s post. but sometimes i will be typing and the cursor just kind of disappears and i may have accidentally added something that was not there previously. my bad. i’ll try to be more careful. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1867 "2010-08-28T20:29:36Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > When does the failed Handshake make Ed Scum MVP? Assume for argument he is town, Even so, we must as town vote for the person being the most anti-town, correct? > > Again, assuming Ed is Town. Which, I’m not so sure about. Obviously. oh crap! When did they change the rules? I thought we won when we eliminated the Scum! ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1868 "2010-08-28T20:31:37Z")
I’ve gotta agree with ed on this one, Meeko. If you think he’s town, the LAST thing you should be doing is voting for him. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1869 "2010-08-28T20:37:48Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Assume for argument he is town, Even so, we must as town vote for the person being the most anti-town, correct? You know, the more I think about this, the more scummy it sounds. I can’t think of any reason for a person to suggest assuming another player is town, and _voting for them anyway._ ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1870 "2010-08-28T20:45:49Z")
quick question **meeko** or to anyone else. it looks like **ed** is picking up quite a few votes for his failed hand shake attempt. most of them along the lines that it was anti town. now in the four previous attempts that he has tried this nonsense it has ended up being 2 - 2. so kind of a null play. and if i am right i think every time he tried to pull this crud off he was town. now i certainly don’t know if this is a really smart scum gambit or just **ed** being **ed**. and i totally agree that it was potentially anti - town and could definitely have a scum motivation. but i look more askance at the folks that participated in this endeavor with a little more jaundiced eye than i do the instigator. because if townie **ed** (just proposing) went down this path and scum had possession of a niller role pm then they would have know what **ed** was up to and hopped right on board by confirming similarities. if **ed** is town, and they would know that, they are trying a backhanded way of trying to confirm themselves if **ed** flips town. and it’s kind of low risk anyways because if he flips scum then all we figure is that scum had an example of the niller pm. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1871 "2010-08-28T20:46:33Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > When does the failed Handshake make Ed Scum MVP? No earlier than the end of the game. We simply can’t judge the _full_ effects of any action until the game is over. > [@](#): > > Assume for argument he is town, Even so, we must as town vote for the person being the most anti-town, correct? Definitely _ **not** _. If you assume Ed is Town, then there is no reason to vote for him at all, and doing so is cutting off your nose to spite your face. We’re supposed to vote for the players who are aligned against Town. Assuming for the sake of argument that Ed is Town, then lynching him means that SAHM move closer to winning. People are allowed to make mistakes. I voted for Ed on Day 1 because I thought he might be one of SAHM, not because I thought he was a Townie who was aiding the enemy. It was good enough for Day 1, but my suspicion has waned since then. Pushing this bandwagon as you are doesn’t tell me anything about your alignment tough; you could be a confused Townie, or one of SAHM trying to push a bandwagon while hiding behind the argument that “SAHM would never risk doing that.” ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1872 "2010-08-28T20:49:52Z")
and **hoopy** i am not going to forget about you either. i think you mentioned that if **chupacabra** flipped scum then that made a case for me. i’d kind of like to know your thought process about that puppy and what in the world you think now that **chupacabra** flipped town. actually more than liking to know i would be absolutely fascinated to know. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1873 "2010-08-28T20:51:03Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > quick question **meeko** or to anyone else. it looks like **ed** is picking up quite a few votes for his failed hand shake attempt. most of them along the lines that it was anti town. now in the four previous attempts that he has tried this nonsense it has ended up being 2 - 2. so kind of a null play. and if i am right i think every time he tried to pull this crud off he was town. now i certainly don’t know if this is a really smart scum gambit or just **ed** being **ed**. and i totally agree that it was potentially anti - town and could definitely have a scum motivation. but i look more askance at the folks that participated in this endeavor with a little more jaundiced eye than i do the instigator. because if townie **ed** (just proposing) went down this path and scum had possession of a niller role pm then they would have know what **ed** was up to and hopped right on board by confirming similarities. if **ed** is town, and they would know that, they are trying a backhanded way of trying to confirm themselves if **ed** flips town. and it’s kind of low risk anyways because if he flips scum then all we figure is that scum had an example of the niller pm. **I’m sorry peeks, what was the question again?** ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1874 "2010-08-28T20:52:27Z")
\*\*We’ve lost Two town power roles. How does Pleonast’s claim fit in on that? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1875 "2010-08-28T20:56:26Z")
it was in 1755 **hoopy**. around the same time that you were justifying your vote on **chupacabra** for waffling, remember that? and so you have a case against me if **chupacabra** flips scum but it falls apart if he/she is town. not that’s a waffle that if you get a side of bacon will set you back 6 bucks or so at ihop. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1876 "2010-08-28T21:01:46Z")
Pleo’s claim means nothing with dead power roles. Just like you can’t know if a game is balanced while you’re still playing it, you can’t know how many power roles make sense while you’re still playing it. You don’t have enough information to make a judgement one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1877 "2010-08-28T21:03:58Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > **I’m sorry peeks, what was the question again?** \ the question is based on the fact that every time **ed** has pulled this nonsense in the past he has been town (i am pretty sure of at least 3 of the 4 times) why would you or anyone else not lead this to evidence that he is just being townie **ed** again? additionally, the other kind of inferred question is along the lines is why wouldn’t you consider it more scummy for other folks to play along with this “handshake” game? i mean if scum have the niller pm then don’t you think they are going to let a scum **ed** lead the charge and then just kind of line up behind him. any town nillers are going to be thinking, oh shit, they are niller as well. and for the actual town nillers that might have outed themselves don’t you think that play equally anti - town. because if scum have the niller pm then all those folks did was narrow the shooting pool for scum. now that’s some pretty anti-town behavior and yet they are town. guess we lynch them next, right? ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1878 "2010-08-28T21:23:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Gadarene** : > > > [@](#): > > > > Chronos, you claim to be a town power role. Does the structure of your role PM roughly match what Suburban posted? No need to give any details beyond a “yes” or “no,” of course. > > > > (Because it’s pretty damn different from the vanilla PM posted by Ed, particularly in ways you wouldn’t necessarily expect it to be – such as the fact that the wincon comes before the Powers section, and not after.) > > This is a good point. I hadn’t noticed any stylistic differences, but I just double-checked my PM, and my win condition comes after my powers section, not before. It’s not damning, but it does make the claim a little more suspect. **Chronos** , when you responded to **Gadarene** about his suspicions of **Suburban** role PM, you stated that your wincon appeared after your “powers section”. The PM you’ve posted does not have a powers section. I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1879 "2010-08-28T22:01:10Z")
Quoth **MHaye** : > [@](#): > > No earlier than the end of the game. We simply can’t judge the full effects of any action until the game is over. To expand on this, the most typical Scum MVP is that guy whom nobody even suspected for a moment might be Scum, and who therefore never got lynched for it. If there is such a person in this game, then we won’t, by definition, know it until the end. Quoth **Guiri** : > [@](#): > > Chronos, when you responded to Gadarene about his suspicions of Suburban role PM, you stated that your wincon appeared after your “powers section”. The PM you’ve posted does not have a powers section. I’m confused. I meant the section where my powers (or “power”, I suppose, given that that second one isn’t worth much) were listed. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867/1880 "2010-08-28T22:38:11Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > > [@Meeko](#): > > > > **I’m sorry peeks, what was the question again?** > > \ > > the question is based on the fact that every time **ed** has pulled this nonsense in the past he has been town (i am pretty sure of at least 3 of the 4 times) why would you or anyone else not lead this to evidence that he is just being townie **ed** again? Every time I was Town. Also, you point to it being a null tell because Town’s record in those games was 2-2. I’m still telling you that measuring the success of a particular strategy isn’t best done by looking at the end result. You can’t answer the question “was the strategy successful?” by answering the question, “Did Town win?” Going back to my original analogy, it’s like asking the question, “Did Andre Dawson hit a home run?” by answering, “He must not have, because the Cubs lost the game today.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=93) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-mafia/549867.md?page=95)