# Lord of the Rings MOVIE fans: What sort of being did you assume Sauron was? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059 "2011-11-15T23:02:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/41 "2011-11-16T16:52:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > If you change that quick to “Welsh women…specifically Catherine Zeta-Jones”, they’ll probably buy it. There is one and only one exception to my sourceless, seething hatred of the Welsh, and it ain’t Mrs. Douglas. [It’s her.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ZEVA5dy-Y&ob=av2e) ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/42 "2011-11-16T17:24:02Z")
I answered “I didn’t really think about it,” although I did make some assumptions, not all that well-thought-out but hey. I figured that: a) clearly he wasn’t just the eye, obviously, since we saw him in full body form at the beginning and peppered throughout the film(s) in flashback. So the “eye” was just his form after having turned to ash or whatever once Isildur lopped off his wrist. Like Voldemort (sorry, I have to mention this as I’m sure Rowling was influenced by this) after his initial defeat, he couldn’t or wouldn’t take up his former form until X happened. In Sauron’s case, until the One Ring was back in his control. b) he wasn’t human (way too large for that). Also at the time I assumed Sarumon and Gandalf were human wizards/sorcerers, and since Sarumon had already gone the “human sorcerer gone bad” route, I didn’t think Sauron would have the same backstory. c) he wasn’t an orc (they didn’t seem evolved enough to be able to create things such as the rings, and besides, wrong size). d) he wasn’t really any of the other races such as elf, balrog or dwarf again because the size thing (he was either too big for elf/dwarf or too small for balrog). Also he seemed intent on giving the rings to Others, rather than whatever-race-he-was. Since I didn’t know there _were_ angels in this universe, fallen or otherwise, I didn’t go there. So basically I just assumed he was a sorcerer being, unique unto himself. But honestly I didn’t even think much about it, because I was just going with the flow and enjoyed his uniqueness. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/43 "2011-11-16T17:56:06Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think it’s deliberate that the book doesn’t reveal what Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and the Balrog were. Very possibly. Personally, I think a large part of what makes LOTR so fascinating is the amount that it leaves mysterious. It is a large part of what gives such incredible depth to its world. I rather wish that I did not now know about maiar, Illuvetar, valar, and all that stuff. (Thank heavens Tom Bombadil is still a mystery.) The actual, articulated, mythology, brilliantly detailed and consistent as it is, does not quite live up to what one is originally induced to imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/44 "2011-11-17T06:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Satchmo** : > Okay, leave that be for now. It looked like in the movie that the Balrog had wings. Is that accurate? It is accurate that it looks (at least somewhat) like it has wings. Let’s leave it at that. And **Skald** , I’m not sure which side you’re preparing to debate, but my position is that neither dragons nor Bombadil are Ainur. I think **Qadgop** disagrees on the dragons, though. And I think it’s pretty clear that Ungoliant was of the World. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/45 "2011-11-17T13:15:46Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I’m not sure I follow - you stood there breathing down his neck, reading over his shoulder as he wrote? !?!?! > > Gee whiz, I bet he found that annoying. Yeah. Apparently I’m the reason he added Tom Bombadil. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/46 "2011-11-17T13:53:33Z")
Aside: I don’t think that just reading the story in the books would explain who/what Sauron was. It’s in the Appendice, n’est-ce pas? So, there’s no shame in Jackson not including any explanation in the movies, nor in people now knowing from just the movies. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/47 "2011-11-17T14:17:00Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > Yeah. Apparently I’m the reason he added Tom Bombadil. ☹ So it’s your fault? I am _so_ going to get you for this! ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/48 "2011-11-17T18:05:00Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Aside: I don’t think that just reading the story in the books would explain who/what Sauron was. It’s in the Appendice, n’est-ce pas? So, there’s no shame in Jackson not including any explanation in the movies, nor in people now knowing from just the movies. What is the dialog between Gandalf and Frodo, at Bag’s End? He explains the ring, but doesn’t give a hint behind the true nature of Sauron? (I believe he does mention that Sauron would rule the world, and some kind of dark age would follow from that.) ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/49 "2011-11-17T18:14:27Z")
(Not reading other people’s replies before answering) I assumed he was an Evil Being of some sort. Not a fallen angel, because I didn’t think he had been good before being bad, but otherwise just some sort of Super-Powerful Evil Being. It didn’t occur to me to wonder what type of Evil Being, and not knowing didn’t take anything away from the story. He was just The Bad Guy. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/50 "2011-11-17T20:32:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think it’s deliberate that the book doesn’t reveal what Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and the Balrog were. I read the books, and the Silmarillion, long before the movies were produced, so I didn’t answer the poll. As far as why the books don’t reference the subject, was it a deliberate decision by Tolkein to keep it secret, or could it be that he hadn’t fleshed out that part of the mythology at that time? I know that various portions of what eventually became the Silmarillion were written over a period of years (if not decades), but I can’t recall the ordering of things. Is it possible that Tolkein himself didn’t know exactly what Gandalf, Sauron, et, al. were at the time he was writing LOTR? ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/51 "2011-11-17T21:35:24Z")
I knew Tolkien was a devout Catholic and a friend of C.S. Lewis’s, so my first guess was “fallen angel,” based on the assumption that Sauron would be the allegorical Satan of the story. I’m still not super-clear on what, exactly Sauron actually was (it sounds like he was more a lieutenant of Satan’s than he was Satan himself), but am I right that he was, essentially, a fallen angel? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/52 "2011-11-18T06:56:41Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > There is one and only one exception to my sourceless, seething hatred of the Welsh, and it ain’t Mrs. Douglas. [It’s her.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ZEVA5dy-Y&ob=av2e) No love for Gwen Cooper? Or Shirley Bassey? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/53 "2011-11-18T09:16:01Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Where’s the “humanoid pterodactyl” option? (i kid, i kid) I love you. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/54 "2011-11-21T16:34:31Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Aside: I don’t think that just reading the story in the books would explain who/what Sauron was. It’s in the Appendice, n’est-ce pas? So, there’s no shame in Jackson not including any explanation in the movies, nor in people now knowing from just the movies. While ordinarily I will take any excuse to criticize the Accursed One, I’m happy to concede that he was right not to try to explain the origins of Sauron and Gandalf in the movies, when the book doesn’t either. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/55 "2011-11-21T16:43:02Z")
[YOU. SHALL. NOT. PEEEEZZZZZ!](http://www.geekalerts.com/u/PEZ-Lord-of-the-Rings-Collectors-Set.jpg) Sorry. Seemed appropriate… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/56 "2011-11-21T16:48:27Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [YOU. SHALL. NOT. PEEEEZZZZZ!](http://www.geekalerts.com/u/PEZ-Lord-of-the-Rings-Collectors-Set.jpg) > > Sorry. Seemed appropriate… Fool of a Took! For that joke to work properly, you should extend “pex” only by adding Zs. Adding Es causes the reader to decode the last word as “peas.” [/jackass] ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/57 "2011-11-21T16:59:03Z")
Everyone’s a critic. Aragorn looks like Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/58 "2011-11-21T17:04:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Everyone’s a critic. > Aragorn looks like Jesus. Take that back. Compare that feckless, murmuring wanker WHO BROKE POOR EOWYN’S HEART to the original of Aslan again, and there will be consequences. Dark, terrible consequences. Remember that not only do I have you under constant repeaterscope surveillance, but I also have half a gross of Lucy Lui hookerassassinbots ready to assail you at a moment’s notice. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/59 "2011-11-21T17:09:24Z")
Aslan? Lucky Lui? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/60 "2011-11-21T17:24:21Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Fool of a Took! > > For that joke to work properly, you should extend “pex” only by adding Zs. Adding Es causes the reader to decode the last word as “peas.” > > [/jackass] It’s impossible to make a satisfying heroic bellow out of that. It would sound more like a cloud of petulant bees than an angry and defiant Istari. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059.md?page=4)