# Lord of the Rings MOVIE fans: What sort of being did you assume Sauron was? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059 "2011-11-15T23:02:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/61 "2011-11-21T17:33:05Z")
Taken as just the movies I’m not sure why one could conclude he was anything other than an extremely powerful elf or human sorcerer. The movies never even hint at the creation myth or the possibility Gandalf & Sauruman are anything other than human. The movies give us a pretext for very long-lived humans (Aragorn is pushing 90 and looks about 30-40) which makes the wizards long lives all the more plausible. So as to whether Sauron would have been a human or an elf? I’d lean more strongly toward **human** owing to the expressed weakness of humans for power. The elves don’t spend much time trying to control the will of others, but the humans are all about maximizing their own influence through manipulating others. Denethor is a good example of that–he bullies his sons using strategies tailored to the weaknesses of each in order to get them to do his bidding. Sauron tried to pull the same thing (amped up with magic) to control the other races. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/62 "2011-11-21T17:36:09Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Taken as just the movies I’m not sure why one could conclude he was anything other than an extremely powerful elf or human sorcerer. The movies never even hint at the creation myth or the possibility Gandalf & Sauruman are anything other than human. The movies give us a pretext for very long-lived humans (Aragorn is pushing 90 and looks about 30-40) which makes the wizards long lives all the more plausible. I disagree, because when I write _movie_, I mean _the goddamn theatrical version_. The bit about Aragorn being in his late 80s is not something a casual viewer would know, and thus by RhymerRule number 2984-q does not count. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/63 "2011-11-21T17:57:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I disagree, because when I write _movie_, I mean _the goddamn theatrical version_. The bit about Aragorn being in his late 80s is not something a casual viewer would know, and thus by RhymerRule number 2984-q does not count. Noted. But with all due respect and deference, under the RymerMinionCode, subsection ZZ/1.2(a) abbreviated communications are permissible when average minion intelligence precludes comprehension of the complete idea. When ambiguity exists in the abbreviation, the complete original communication shall serve as the binding source. Given the theatrical and dramatic films were written, shot, and compiled at approximately the same time the theatrical would be properly considered an abbreviated form of the longer, more detailed dramatic. Therefore Aragorn’s age is admissible and relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/64 "2011-11-21T18:35:27Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Noted. But with all due respect and deference, under the RymerMinionCode, subsection ZZ/1.2(a) abbreviated communications are permissible when average minion intelligence precludes comprehension of the complete idea. When ambiguity exists in the abbreviation, the complete original communication shall serve as the binding source. > > Given the theatrical and dramatic films were written, shot, and compiled at approximately the same time the theatrical would be properly considered an abbreviated form of the longer, more detailed dramatic. Therefore Aragorn’s age is admissible and relevant. Don’t bother me with facts. That scene is just another reason why Movie!Aragorn is a wanker who needed a series of brutal open-handed slaps across the face. I would continue with my prior argument but I forgot what it was. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/65 "2011-11-21T18:37:38Z")
That was the _old_ minion code. Pray that he does not alter it further. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/66 "2011-11-21T22:51:26Z")
I think I figured out why I knew Gandalf et al weren’t human: because I was at least tangentially familiar with RPG classes, and Wizards aren’t humans there. At least, they’re right there with other species. And that likely ultimately was Tolkien’s influence. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/67 "2011-11-21T22:58:11Z")
There’s wizards in (nearly?) all D&D races. Some are better suited for it than others, but humans are among the best. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/68 "2011-11-21T22:59:46Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > There’s wizards in (nearly?) all D&D races. Some are better suited for it than others, but humans are among the best. I think he’s talking about the old Iron Crown Middle-Earth Roleplaying (MERP). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/69 "2011-11-21T23:03:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That was the _old_ minion code. Pray that he does not alter it further. I take back what I said about not inventing you to parties. You still have to bring your own booze, though. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/70 "2011-11-21T23:04:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I take back what I said about not **inventing** you to parties. Is there something you’d like to tell us about **Chronos**? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/71 "2011-11-21T23:09:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Is there something you’d like to tell us about **Chronos**? Proofreading is for children and Welshmen. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/72 "2011-11-21T23:10:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Is there something you’d like to tell us about **Chronos**? Could I interest you in some garage fire retardant? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/73 "2011-11-22T02:11:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Proofreading is for children and Welshmen. “Proofreading is for women and Frenchmen.” according to the email notifying me of your post. Yes, Skald, I, too have my methods. Is there something you would like to tell us about Frenchmen? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/74 "2011-11-22T04:37:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I take back what I said about not inventing you to parties. You still have to bring your own booze, though. That’s OK. I do not drink… wine. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059/75 "2011-11-23T00:02:10Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > “Proofreading is for women and Frenchmen.” according to the email notifying me of your post. Yes, Skald, I, too have my methods. > > Is there something you would like to tell us about Frenchmen? I decided against being sexist. I have no problem being ageist. It’s in the RhymerFaq. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-fans-what-sort-of-being-did-you-assume-sauron-was/603059.md?page=3)