# Lord of the Rings movie trilogy question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 6, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562 "2017-03-06T18:28:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/21 "2017-03-07T07:18:36Z")
I don’t remember if this bit of the book was the same as the movie, but I got the impression that Gandalf was only rescued from Saruman’s Tower by one of the Eagles under happenstance. He happened to see the butterfly and talk it into getting some help from an eagle. The Eagle helped Gandalf since he was one of the god’s servants and not one of the humans that they weren’t allowed to get involved with. Helping out the wizard chosen to help out humanity was acceptable, getting directly involved in the conflict by flying into Mordor and killing Sauron’s flunkies was not acceptable. Even with millions of lives at stake, _there were rules_, dammit! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Pork-Chop\_Express](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@The\_Pork-Chop\_Express](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Pork-Chop_Express)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/22 "2017-03-07T08:05:24Z")
Re: ‘Fly, you fools.’ ‘Fly’ is just oldentimesy for run/escape. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/23 "2017-03-07T10:37:33Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > I don’t remember if this bit of the book was the same as the movie, but I got the impression that Gandalf was only rescued from Saruman’s Tower by one of the Eagles under happenstance. He happened to see the butterfly and talk it into getting some help from an eagle. In the book, it’s happenstance to some extent; but different in detail (the “butterfly” bit in the film is understandable simpilfication, avoiding exposition which would be time-consuming). Gandalf recounts at the Council of Elrond, how things went. About the time that Frodo and company leave the Shire, Gandalf encounters by chance, near Bree, Radagast the Brown. They compare notes, and Gandalf learns that the Ringwraiths are at large – he decides to go to Orthanc to confer with Saruman (who is still thought to be serving the good cause). As they part, Gandalf says to Radagast, “We shall need your help, and the help of all things that will give it. Send out messages to all the beasts and birds that are your friends. Tell them to bring news of anything that bears on this matter to Saruman and Gandalf. Let messages be sent to Orthanc.” Weeks later – imprisoned on the pinnacle of Orthanc by Saruman, who has turned traitor – Gandalf is visited by the great eagle Gwaihir, who at Radagast’s request as above, has come to deliver a “sitrep”; Gandalf explains the situation, and Gwaihir flies him out of captivity. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/24 "2017-03-07T13:08:00Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I think this is the real reason. Gandalf didn’t dare touch the ring. Elrond wouldn’t dare. Galadrial wouldn’t dare. The Eagles, one of the mightiest races in Middle Earth, would have been in at least as much trouble. The ring could only be entrusted to the smallest, weakest, least significant of creatures. Thus Tolkien’s main thesis: strength in the little guy… I don’t think most suggestions of “Let the Eagles Do It” involve turning the ring over to them. Instead, the Eagles were supposed to provide transport to the Ringbearer. When Frodo finally made it to the Crack(s) of Doom, he _could not_ discard the Ring. Mightier beings than he had feared its power–he was a victim, too. But Gollum intervened–showing why it had been right to avoid killing the wretched creature, as so many had suggested. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/25 "2017-03-07T13:30:19Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I don’t think most suggestions of “Let the Eagles Do It” involve turning the ring over to them. Instead, the Eagles were supposed to provide transport to the Ringbearer. …and when they are aware of what he’s carrying, they’ll try to take it from him. That’s the idea, anyway, I remain unconvinced. I’m happy with a “sort your own shit out, mortals” explanation. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/26 "2017-03-07T13:55:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …and when they are aware of what he’s carrying, they’ll try to take it from him. That’s the idea, anyway, I remain unconvinced. I’m happy with a “sort your own shit out, mortals” explanation. That would be my take. If the “servants of Manwe” hypothesis is correct, they should not have been corrupted by the Ring. In the book (unlike the movie) Gandalf had no trouble handling the Ring as did [del]Sir Not-appearing-in-this-film[/del] Tom Bombadil. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/27 "2017-03-07T14:05:09Z")
> [@The\_Pork-Chop\_Express](#): > > Re: ‘Fly, you fools.’ > > ‘Fly’ is just oldentimesy for run/escape. Is it really theat oldentimesy, though? It didn’t sound strange to me in the film, and it’s sometime I might say today. “One more drink?” “No, thanks, I’ve gotta fly.” ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/28 "2017-03-07T14:08:56Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > That would be my take. If the “servants of Manwe” hypothesis is correct, they should not have been corrupted by the Ring. In the book (unlike the movie) Gandalf had no trouble handling the Ring as did [del]Sir Not-appearing-in-this-film[/del] Tom Bombadil. Well the book (and movie) made it clear he did not want it at all > [@](#): > > ‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. ‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.’ ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/29 "2017-03-07T14:25:57Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > That would be my take. If the “servants of Manwe” hypothesis is correct, they should not have been corrupted by the Ring. In the book (unlike the movie) Gandalf had no trouble handling the Ring as did [del]Sir Not-appearing-in-this-film[/del] Tom Bombadil. Saruman was the same order of being as Gandalf - except, considered to rank above Gandalf. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/30 "2017-03-07T17:59:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They would have been unknown at the time of the Council of Elrond, so they wouldn’t have been a reason for members of the Council not to propose using the Eagles. > > I think the best in-Universe reason for not asking the Eagles is that they were sentient beings and could be corrupted by the ring just like Gandalf or Aragorn. They couldn’t carry it to Mordor any more than any being who wasn’t a hobbit could. (And with even if a hobbit rode an Eagle, the ring would be close enough to influence it.) True, but the Will of Sauron and the 100000 orc archers were known. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/31 "2017-03-07T18:16:54Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > That would be my take. If the “servants of Manwe” hypothesis is correct, they should not have been corrupted by the Ring. In the book (unlike the movie) Gandalf had no trouble handling the Ring as did [del]Sir Not-appearing-in-this-film[/del] Tom Bombadil. Actually, Gandalf is quite hesitant to handle the ring. He does not let Bilbo hand it to him to convey to Frodo, and only picks up the envelope after Bilbo drops it, then immediately sets it on the mantle. At this point, he’s not even certain it is the One Ring. He only handles it twice thereafter, both times without knowing that it is the One Ring for certain. Frodo hands him the ring, whereupon Gandalf flings it into the fire. Then, Gandalf retrieves the ring with tongs, and picks it up, handing it at once to Frodo. And, as has been noted above, Gandalf refuses the offer of the One Ring, just as Galadriel does, and _most importantly_, just as Faramir does (which in my mind, as I have expressed before on this Board, justifies Gandalf’s trust in men). The Eagles are akin to Gandalf. They are clearly maiar. Thus, I have always felt that, like the other maiar, they are not supposed to directly interfere in the doings of men and elves after the end of the Second Age. Gandalf himself is primarily a counselor to men and elves. For the Eagles to fly the Ring to Orodruin would be a direct act that would be counter to Manwë’s commands on the subject. And, as has also been pointed out, the Ring would work its evil on them, just as it does on almost everyone else it comes in contact with. Even Frodo succumbs eventually (Sam, notably, does not, but then, Sam has it a short period). Finally, I think that Gandalf and Elrond would certainly expect that Sauron would have SOME defense prepared against the Eagles, even if they didn’t know about the “fell beasts” Sauron had bred. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/32 "2017-03-07T18:23:43Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Saruman was the same order of being as Gandalf - except, considered to rank above Gandalf. Technically, Sauron was of the same order as Gandalf and Saruman – all [Maiar](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Maiar), servants of specific Valar. Their powers and standing varied as greatly as their intentions, both during their active service with their Valar masters and as free agents within Middle-Earth, but Sauron was the only being who could wear the Ring with no ill effect, since it was made for his hand. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@Dante\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_G)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/33 "2017-03-07T18:38:40Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Even Frodo succumbs eventually (Sam, notably, does not, but then, Sam has it a short period). I’ve heard online that some consider Sam more of a hero then Frodo because he demonstrates an easiness in giving the ring back to Frodo in Return of the King. It demonstrates that he has no desire at all for the power the Ring can give, no matter how much influence the Ring can push on him. Would you guys agree? ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/34 "2017-03-07T18:58:05Z")
> [@Dante\_G](#): > > I’ve heard online that some consider Sam more of a hero then Frodo because he demonstrates an easiness in giving the ring back to Frodo in Return of the King. It demonstrates that he has no desire at all for the power the Ring can give, no matter how much influence the Ring can push on him. Sam hadn’t been carrying the ring around his neck months on end. In the book Frodo had the ring in Bag End for decades before they embarked for Rivendell. Sam was never under the ring’s influence for as long as Frodo. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/35 "2017-03-07T20:41:27Z")
> [@Dante\_G](#): > > Now, I tried to explain to the boys how this is not really a plot hole and it’s actually been discussed over and over on the internet. That there is no reasonably agreed upon answer and the author can’t give an in-universe explanation means it really _is_ a plot hole. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/36 "2017-03-07T21:43:46Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > …like the other maiar, they are not supposed to directly interfere in the doings of men and elves after the end of the Second Age… I know this is canon, and I don’t take issue with you at all. In-universe, however, I always want to shake Manwe by his lapels and shout at him that the doings at issue are those of Sauron, who is not a man or an elf. It always frosts my bottom that the Valar all but wash their hands of any problem that happens to leave Aman. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/37 "2017-03-07T22:10:36Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I know this is canon, and I don’t take issue with you at all. In-universe, however, I always want to shake Manwe by his lapels and shout at him that the doings at issue are those of Sauron, who is not a man or an elf. It always frosts my bottom that the Valar all but wash their hands of any problem that happens to leave Aman. They’ve intervened twice. Once, in a disasterous [war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Wrath) that sank half a continent. The [second time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akallab%C3%AAth), to defend their own realm, bent the world into a sphere and took Valinor out of normal spacetime. Are you sure Valaric intervention is the best possible outcome? Because the few times it’s happened it’s literally been catastrophic. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@Dante\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_G)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/38 "2017-03-07T22:36:10Z")
After going back and looking at the end of the book, I think it’s kind of sad/funny that Gollum was in fact the only reason the Ring was destroyed, even though it was not his intent. I know in the film and in the book, Frodo succumbs to the Ring right before dropping in the fire. However in the film, after Gollum attacks him and takes the Ring, Frodo tackles him and pushes him into the lava. In the book, Gollum just does his happy dance and stumbles into the lava all by himself. So essentially, in the original text, Gollum is the hero in a way. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/39 "2017-03-07T22:41:42Z")
I certainly agree that Sam is more of a hero than Frodo, and the Ring’s lack of power over him is one of my arguments to that effect. Yes, his custody of the Ring was the briefest of any of the Ringbearers, but even so, none of the others managed anything even comparable to what he did. Of particular note, every other Ringbearer, _immediately upon gaining custody of it_, claimed it as owned. Sam never did. EDIT: To **DanteG** , also note that Gollum fell in _as a direct result of the Ring’s power_. As they’re going up the Mountain, when Gollum attacks Frodo, Frodo for the first and only time uses the primary power of the Ring, and commands Gollum “If you ever touch me again or try to steal it, you will yourself be thrown into the Fire” (or something to that effect; I don’t have the book in front of me). Which is of course exactly what happens, with the result that the power of Evil is its own undoing. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/40 "2017-03-07T22:50:07Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > They’ve intervened twice. Once, in a disasterous [war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Wrath) that sank half a continent. The [second time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akallab%C3%AAth), to defend their own realm, bent the world into a sphere and took Valinor out of normal spacetime. > > Are you sure Valaric intervention is the best possible outcome? Because the few times it’s happened it’s literally been catastrophic. Actually, at the end of the Second Age, it’s Iluvatar who bends the world and takes Aman out of the normal pathways of the earth. > [@Appendix A](#): > > But when Ar-Pharazôn set foot upon the shores of Aman the Blessed, the Valar laid down their guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Númenor was thrown down and swallowed in the sea, and the Undying Lands were removed forever from the circles of the world. So ended the glory of Númenor. But, yeah, basically, you don’t really want the Valar taking direct action. They changed the lay of the land in Middle Earth quite often in the First Age, when trying to take care of Melkor/Morgoth. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562.md?page=3)