# Lord of the Rings movie trilogy question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 6, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562 "2017-03-06T18:28:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/81 "2017-03-10T02:08:32Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > (bolding mine) hmm, i did not mean to type all, makes for a dumb sentence too doesn’t it? But i obviously have, so thanks for pointing that out. Obviously Lotho and Smeagol prove that even the good can be badly corrupted, and sometimes can corrupt themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/82 "2017-03-10T02:23:43Z")
Do not underestimate the One Ring’s ability to corrupt anyone it is near. None of the Wise trusted themselves to take the thing. When offered it, Galadriel - who saw the light of the Two Trees _and_ learned at Melian’s feet for centuries - barely refused it. Gandalf feared he would fall to its temptation, and he was a Maiar. Saruman _did_ succumb to its temptation enough that he used a Palantír to talk to Sauron, and all Saruman did was to _study_ the Rings. Frodo only resisted because he showed Gollum pity, as Gandalf pointed out; and in the end, Frodo succumbed. Sam only resisted because of his love for Mr. Frodo, and he was sorely tempted. And for all the speculation of hobbits’ special resistance to the Ring’s power, we only learned that _after_ it was destroyed. There’s no way the Council would have trusted Sam to carry it at that point - they only accepted Frodo because he’d demonstrated he could bring it to Rivendell, and literally no one else was willing to take the thing. Boromir succumbed to the Ring just by being near it and thinking about it. Give the Ring to an Eagle, or to a hobbit mounted on an Eagle, and all the Ring’s power will be focused on _them_. And, once the Eye spotted them - and have no doubt, Sauron watched for the Eagles of Manwë - all of Sauron’s considerable power would have been focused on them, too. Sauron’s will + coveting the Ring had brought down Saruman, whom Gandalf judged his superior; no one would have resisted while _actually carrying the One Ring_.\* (\* that would’ve been a sub-optimal outcome from Sauron’s perspective, of course, since the flying Ringbearer would’ve claimed the One Ring for themself, and then you end up with Dark Lord Sauron + hordes of Mordor vs. Dark Lord Gwaihir + Evil Eagles.) ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/83 "2017-03-10T05:42:34Z")
Thanks **Colibri** , for so effectively fielding the “10,000 arrows” rebuttal. You addressed it precisely and persuasively. If I weren’t so lazy, I could have googled the correct distance and time, rather than half-assing it in the first place. I think the effect of the Ring on the Eagle ‘mount’ is the weakest part of the **Simply Fly to Mordor** plan. There IS no way to know how well the Eagle(s) would have done in the presence of the ring, even in the span of hours. The wrong personality would succumb much more quickly than Frodo & Sam. Sméagol set upon Déagol within minutes. I do question the idea that Sam would not have had the will to throw the Ring in. He used the Ring quite a bit in the heart of Mordor (probably more much total time than Frodo himself ever did) and had only a mild hesitation in giving it back to Frodo. Sam could have steeled himself with the knowledge that he was selflessly saving poor, wounded Mr Frodo from having to endure more pain, and managed one lousy day carrying it on a (one hopes) non-lousy Eagle. Furthermore, if they hadn’t dicked about so much in Rivendell, they might have got Samwise an Eagle ride to magical Mordorland before the Ringwraiths had even collected themselves and upgraded their mounts after the river incident. > [@](#): > > ‘And is that the end of the Black Riders?’ asked Frodo.‘No,’ said Gandalf.‘Their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed. However, there is nothing more to fear from them at present.’ It’s fun to speculate, but of course, the heart of the story is the role everyone has to play. It was up to Frodo, and no one else. It’s presented as if it was all fated to happen that way. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/84 "2017-03-10T15:18:25Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I think this is the real reason. Gandalf didn’t dare touch the ring. Elrond wouldn’t dare. Galadrial wouldn’t dare. The Eagles, one of the mightiest races in Middle Earth, would have been in at least as much trouble. The ring could only be entrusted to the smallest, weakest, least significant of creatures. Thus Tolkien’s main thesis: strength in the little guy. > > (That, and Don Henley had not yet joined them so they really weren’t quite ready for prime time.) Heh, heh. I had to make sure you got your props for the Don Henley statement. Well played. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/85 "2017-03-10T16:17:41Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > No, not just anyone, but then not just anyone can even carry the ring. > But perhaps a Hobbit. > All a Hobbits, and Frodo’s specifically, unassuming qualities are what armored him against the ring and Sauron until the very end, and allowed him to enter Mordor, when even those finally failed. Whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/86 "2017-03-10T18:29:13Z")
Fanwank in-universe explanations all you want. They’re fun to speculate and even more fun to argue. But at the end, they’re not the root cause of the lack of a “Mordor Express”. [Tolkien Letter #210](https://www.facebook.com/notes/everything-about-jrr-tolkien/tolkien-letter-210/672383596206941/) has some quotes that bring great insight into Tolkien’s thoughts of the Great Eagles. Context: In 1957, one Morton Zimmerman did a movie treatment and proposed script based on _Lord of the Rings_. Tolkien read it over and hated it. Letter 210 (June 1958), to Forrest Ackerman, made plain Tolkien’s objections. The tenor of his objections can be summarized thus: > [@Tolkien](#): > > …Z … has intruded a ‘fairy castle’ and a great many Eagles, not to mention incantations, blue lights, and some irrelevant magic (such as the floating body of Faramir). He has cut the parts of the story upon which its characteristic and peculiar tone principally depends, showing a preference for fights; and he has **made no serious attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately: the journey of the Ringbearers.** The last and most important pan of this has, and it is not too strong a word, simply been murdered. Strong meat. Zimmerman is criticized for making “ **no serious attempt to represent…the journey of the Ringbearers**.” **The journey**. Which must perforce be pretty perfunctory if all you do is hop Eagle Airlines direct flight to Mordor, no stops, no layovers. Zimmerman also brought Great Eagles into his rendition that Tolkien had not, and Tolkien had specific objections to this: > [@Letter 210](#): > > 1. Here we meet the first intrusion of the Eagles. I think they are a major mistake of Z, and without warrant. **The Eagles are a dangerous ‘machine’. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness.** The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of G. by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape. (One of Z’s chief faults is his tendency to anticipate scenes or devices used later, thereby flattening the tale out.) Zimmerman brought The Great Eagle to the Shire very early in the story. This makes the Eagle into Checkov’s Eagle: introduced into Act I, you’re telegraphing that it’s going to be involved later, utterly spoiling the surprise of Gandalf’s escape from Orthanc. Note also Tolkien’s expression in that quote of the role of the Great Eagles in his stories in general. “ **The Eagles are a dangerous ‘machine’. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness.** ” The word “machine” brings to mind “deus ex machina”. If the Great Eagles can solve your problems, what problems do you have? It’s divine intervention on tap (perhaps literally so in-universe, depending on their status with respect to the Valar). Tolkien was writing an quest epic, a tale about a journey. And you don’t get one of these if the quest resolution is a hop, skip, and flight away. Epics are supposed to be arduous. And that’s why no convenient Eagles. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/87 "2017-03-11T03:17:55Z")
Now I’m curious _again_ as to what the heck Zimmerman had going on in his proposed movie that led to Faramir magically floating about. Frodo used some souped-up Ring powerz? Gandalf levitating comatose Faramir about because, wizards? And, Eru forbid that had been filmed, _then_ we’d’ve had thread after thread of people asking “Why didn’t they just _levitate_ the One Ring into Mount Doom?” And we’d all be arguing whether levitating the One Ring counts as wearing the damn thing or not. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/88 "2017-03-11T03:42:37Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The Eagles were one of the Five Armies. The account suggests there were at least hundreds of them. Certainly more than enough to take on nine Nazgul (at most). Actually, they weren’t. Here’s the relevant passage from the Hobbit: “So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves.” ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/89 "2017-03-11T05:08:03Z")
Here’s my few cents’ worth. Aside from the fact that it would completely destroy the plot, there might be a few other issues with using the Eagles to deliver the Ring to Mount Doom. Travel by air has always struck me with just how precarious it is - as soon as you leave the ground, any problems you have will be, well, very short-lived. No one’s yet mentioned how polluted the air is/was in Mordor, and particularly around Mount Doom. A lot of grit in the air, I’d expect. Would an Eagle be able to hold its breath long enough to keep flying? Would the visibility be enough for an Eagle? What are the air currents around Mount Doom? Pretty bad, I’d think, especially with the Ring itself causing a lot of disturbance. Is there any way to test this out ahead of time? No. We might also figure that the Eagle(s) would be quickly spotted crossing into Mordor airspace. Will they have enough time to figure where to drop the Hobbits, who then still need to find the way to the Cracks of Doom -? Further, the Hobbits under this scenario won’t have had too much fighting experience, and would probably be very easy pickings for even the smallest orc patrol they run into. And all that’s beyond the other magical/spiritual corruption complications already mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/90 "2017-03-11T05:55:35Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > Actually, they weren’t. Here’s the relevant passage from the Hobbit: Right. I was referring to an inaccurate article, which I realized after I posted. Once upon a time I knew that the Wargs were the Fifth Army, but had forgotten it. (But really, it should have been the Battle of the Six Armies, since the Eagles were decisive. if Wargs counted, so should Eagles. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/91 "2017-03-11T06:17:38Z")
> [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > No one’s yet mentioned how polluted the air is/was in Mordor, and particularly around Mount Doom. A lot of grit in the air, I’d expect. Would an Eagle be able to hold its breath long enough to keep flying? Would the visibility be enough for an Eagle? What are the air currents around Mount Doom? Pretty bad, I’d think, especially with the Ring itself causing a lot of disturbance. Is there any way to test this out ahead of time? No. Birds have pretty amazing respiratory systems, far better than those of mammals. Even real-world Eagles have incredible visual acuity, as well as a nictitating membranes (transparent third eyelid) that would protect the eyes from grit. And as I’ve pointed out, the Eagles fly very fast. Mt. Doom is maybe 50 miles from the border of Mordor, which means less than an hour’s flight for an eagle. If hobbits could breathe near Mt. Doom, then Eagles certainly could. Nor do we have any indication that Great Eagles couldn’t deal with air currents near Mt. Doom. > [@](#): > > We might also figure that the Eagle(s) would be quickly spotted crossing into Mordor airspace. Will they have enough time to figure where to drop the Hobbits, who then still need to find the way to the Cracks of Doom -? Further, the Hobbits under this scenario won’t have had too much fighting experience, and would probably be very easy pickings for even the smallest orc patrol they run into. As I’ve also pointed out, the Eagles are so swift that there would be no time for even a close patrol of orcs to get to Mt. Doom in time. There is a broad road made by Sauron from Barad Dur to the entrance to the Cracks of Doom. Sam and Frodo have no trouble finding it from the ground; the Eagles with their keen vision will easily see the entrance from the air and be able to drop a rider directly there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/92 "2017-03-11T07:37:49Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > If hobbits could breathe near Mt. Doom, then Eagles certainly could. Nor do we have any indication that Great Eagles couldn’t deal with air currents near Mt. Doom. In fact, given that they picked up Sam and Frodo after the Ring was destroyed, we \*know \*they could. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/93 "2017-03-11T16:11:33Z")
For that matter, Beorn’s part in the Battle was described as being nearly equivalent to another army in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/94 "2017-03-11T16:27:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > In fact, given that they picked up Sam and Frodo after the Ring was destroyed, we \*know \*they could. Right, and that was in the middle of a violent eruption. If they could deal with that, then they would have no problems before the eruption. And if they could locate two tiny hobbits in the middle of an eruption, they would have no trouble finding a large entrance at the end of a road. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/95 "2017-03-11T20:37:24Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As I’ve also pointed out, the Eagles are so swift that there would be no time for even a close patrol of orcs to get to Mt. Doom in time. There is a broad road made by Sauron from Barad Dur to the entrance to the Cracks of Doom. Sam and Frodo have no trouble finding it from the ground; the Eagles with their keen vision will easily see the entrance from the air and be able to drop a rider directly there. Orcs, no, but other things, such as fell beasts, or Sauron himself actually? I was always curious though, Samwise dons the ring for a short time. Inside Mordor no less. Did Mr Sauron suffer that badly from target fixation to have missed that bell going off? He wore the ring for 2 days while sneaking around to rescue Frodo. 2 days in shadow, and Sauron does not notice? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/96 "2017-03-11T21:03:27Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Orcs, no, but other things, such as fell beasts, or Sauron himself actually? Please read the thread. It’s been discussed repeatedly that the only thing that could provide a defense against the Eagles would be Nazgul mounted on “fell beasts.” The Nazgul were not known to have flying mounts at the time of the Council of Elrond. It is unclear whether they were available to them at this time or only became so several months later. In any case, the Eagles far outnumbered the Nazgul. Sauron is not depicted as ever leaving Barad Dur during the events of LotR (although he did travel there from Dol Goldur earlier). It is not clear what his physical form was or how mobile he was. But once again, how well Mordor is defended is irrelevant. The best reasons for not using the Eagles are intrinsic to the nature of the Eagles and the Ring. Even if Mordor were completely undefended there were good reasons to not use the Eagles. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/97 "2017-03-16T18:43:18Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > 1. Orcs aren’t everywhere, even in Mordor. > 2. Mt. Doom itself wasn’t guarded. Sauron couldn’t imagine that anyone would want to destroy the ring rather than use it themselves, so there was no reason to defend Mt. Doom. Mount Doom was traditionally guarded, and even if it weren’t, there would’ve been plenty of orcs ready to respond to the call in the immediate vicinity. They were called away as a result of Sauron pulling all of his troops to the Black Gates to confront Aragorn & Co, whom he thought had the ring. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/98 "2017-03-16T18:56:21Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Mount Doom was traditionally guarded, I’m going to need a cite that the immediate area of Mt. Doom and its entrance was routinely guarded. Why should it be? Sauron couldn’t imagine anyone would want to destroy the ring. > [@](#): > > and even if it weren’t, there would’ve been plenty of orcs ready to respond to the call in the immediate vicinity. Why would orcs be posted in a desolate area without food in the middle of Mordor that Sauron thought didn’t need to be guarded? ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/99 "2017-03-17T16:20:54Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’m going to need a cite that the immediate area of Mt. Doom and its entrance was routinely guarded. Why should it be? Sauron couldn’t imagine anyone would want to destroy the ring. It was a Place of Power. There was a road going up the mountain (sorry movie, you suck at details) and at least some structures/construction. I think the better question is: Why wouldn’t there be orcs there? A place that can be used to forge rings of power seems like the sort of thing you might want to keep an eye on. > [@](#): > > Why would orcs be posted in a desolate area without food in the middle of Mordor that Sauron thought didn’t need to be guarded? Well, it’s only on the major road between Barad-dur and Minas Morgul. Also, “without food”? There’s no food anywhere in Gorgoroth, so I guess all of the Black Gate and suchlike were also unguarded? Food for that entire region needs to be brought in, so it doesn’t much matter where the troops are stationed in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562/100 "2017-03-17T19:26:36Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Please read the thread. It’s been discussed repeatedly that the only thing that could provide a defense against the Eagles would be Nazgul mounted on “fell beasts.” The Nazgul were not known to have flying mounts at the time of the Council of Elrond. It is unclear whether they were available to them at this time or only became so several months later. In any case, the Eagles far outnumbered the Nazgul. > . It has been discussed repeatedly but there certainly is no consensus on this. There were many orcs in the area, but they had all recently been pulled away for the two battles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-movie-trilogy-question/781562.md?page=4)