# Lord of the Rings Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [August 31, 2001, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174 "2001-08-31T18:53:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/41 "2001-09-03T17:46:05Z")
Oh, and if you buy now (well, if you buy _any_ time, really), you’ll also recieve the opening chapters of Tolkien’s abandoned sequel to LotR! BTW, the HOME volumes that have the LotR drafts are _The Return of the Shadow, The War of the Ring, The Treason of Isengard,_ and _Sauron Defeated._ In fact, I don’t actually own them, but I’ve been lusting after these books for some time… ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2001, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/42 "2001-09-03T18:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\* > > A true Tolkien fiend _must_ read HOMES! Then you can meet; Trotter, the hobbit ranger; Bingo, Bilbo’s son and heir; and read about the land of Ond! You’ll also be able to read a chapter that JRRT cut out of The Return of the King at the very last minute. > > Several books in the HOMES series (I forget which ones) have Tolkien’s earliest LOTR manuscript exerpts. It truly changed a lot as he was writing it. > > If you’re not all that interested in the events of The Silmarillion, just select the volumes of HOMES which deal with the War of the Ring. Otherwise, read them all, and learn about Finarphir, the Gnomes, and listen to conversations with the young Earendil. \*\* Tears of joy are filling my eyes. **Qadgop** , please call my wife and explain to her that the charges on the debit card are _your_ fault. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2001, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/43 "2001-09-03T19:20:45Z")
**August West** go now to a large bookstore in your area. Barnes and Noble, Borders, in our area, both carry paperback boxed sets of the volumes described by **katisha**. They are yours for the purchasing. Better libraries should have copies, too. And for free! ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/44 "2001-09-04T01:47:20Z")
Also, see if you can find _The Tolkein Reader_, a cute collection of stories and poems by the Professor, some of which have to do with Middle Earth. And this will introduce you to non-Middle Earth Tolkein writings, which will force you to read _Smith of Wooten Major_, and _Farmer Giles of Ham_, the latter of which is an excellent little story. Which will make you want to read the excellent Biography of Tolkein by Humphrey Carter (IIRC), wherein you learn all sorts of interesting things about the Professor. And when you do all this, and read all there is to read, then think about all us poor dopes who, in the mid-70’s only had _The Hobbit_ and _LotR_ to figure out Middle-Earth with. I remember desperately waiting for _The Silmarillion_ to make it into print… Oh, wait, I’m not addicted, either. Really. And the medication is helping me feel much better now… PS QtM, my apologies, you are correct and you’ll notice it’s the one thing I didn’t run down a citation for… erp! ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/45 "2001-09-04T03:59:03Z")
Of course we mustn’t forget that after you read the Biography, you’ll want to check out the Letters of Tolkien, which happily are now back in print (I bought my copy a year ago), so you can see what Tolkien himself said about his works, and miscellaneous other things. It’s a must-read for the Tolkien addict. And if you want to read literary criticism of the whole thing, I recommend Tom Shippey’s _J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century,_ which looks at LotR (and the other works, but primarily LotR) as a specifically modern novel as well as examining it in terms of the Northern European mythology that inspired Tolkien. It’s a fascinating read. (And thanks for the tip, **Qadgop** – I shall go book shopping post-haste!) ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/46 "2001-09-04T13:16:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\ ***August West** go now to a large bookstore in your area. Barnes and Noble, Borders, in our area, both carry paperback boxed sets of the volumes described by **katisha** \*\* I’ve got the day off tomorrow, I’m going then. I’ve read most of the other Tolkien stuff recommended here, but no one mentioned The Inklings by Humphrey Carpenter. Has anyone else read this book? I thought it was really good. Oh, **Qadgop**? Our areas are the same, IIRC. Aren’t you also in the vicinity of Milwaukee? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/47 "2001-09-04T14:04:08Z")
I am in Milwaukee even as I type. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/48 "2001-09-04T14:43:53Z")
My favorite bit about the dragons of Middle Earth was when Earendil the Brave slew Ancalagon the Black, greatest of the cold drakes. The force of the impact when Ancalagon fell drove the continent of Beleriand beneath the sea. Now _that’s_ a Dragon! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/49 "2001-09-04T15:11:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\*My favorite bit about the dragons of Middle Earth was when Earendil the Brave slew Ancalagon the Black, greatest of the cold drakes. The force of the impact when Ancalagon fell drove the continent of Beleriand beneath the sea. > Now _that’s_ a Dragon! \*\* I belive if you read closely that you will find that Ancalagon’s fall broke the towers of Thangorodrim. It was the War of Wrath itself that broke up most of Beleriand. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/50 "2001-09-04T17:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\*My favorite bit about the dragons of Middle Earth was when Earendil the Brave slew Ancalagon the Black, greatest of the cold drakes. The force of the impact when Ancalagon fell drove the continent of Beleriand beneath the sea. > > Now _that’s_ a Dragon! \*\* Was Ancalagon a cold drake? My Encyclopedia of Middle-Earth says that cold drakes probably couldn’t breathe fire, and Gandalf thought Ancalagon could breathe fire. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/51 "2001-09-04T17:30:16Z")
It’s been a real long time, but when Gandalf had his run in with the Lord of the Nazgul, he shot thunderbolts at the Nazgul and drove them off. Didn’t that come from Gandalf’s ring? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/52 "2001-09-04T17:55:40Z")
**China Guy** The book never said it came from the ring, and I would doubt very much that it did. Tolkien clearly stated that the elven rings were different from the others; the elves sought to understand, to heal, to preserve, and to inspire. They did not seek to dominate. I doubt any of th elven rings could be used as offensive weapons. And being a Maiar imbued with the Flame Imperishable by Iluvatar before the making of Arda, I’m sure Gandalf had the inherent ability to wield it, especially after his rebirth as Gandalf the White. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/53 "2001-09-05T08:58:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > his rebirth as Gandalf the White. \*\* I’ve been wondering…did Gandalf becoming “the White” have anything to do with Sauruman losing his power? And what’s up with that whole The White/The Grey/The Brown…etc thing? Is there a story behind that? ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/54 "2001-09-05T14:16:00Z")
There’s certainly a story behind it (although I don’t know it). Names and appellations were never arbitrary in Tolkien. In fact he always started with a name (for a place or a character) that was already pregnant with meaning, and use as the basis for all the details. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/55 "2001-09-05T17:00:23Z")
Remember what Gandalf the White himself said to Gimli, when Gimli apologized for mistaking him for Saruman: “Indeed, one could say I am Saruman, or Saruman as he should have been”. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/56 "2001-09-06T02:24:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cisco \* > I’ve been wondering…did Gandalf becoming “the White” have anything to do with Sauruman losing his power? And what’s up with that whole The White/The Grey/The Brown…etc thing? Is there a story behind that? \*\* I’ve always just assumed that there was a ranking system within the Istari. I think Gandalf says as much at the Council of Elrond, sorry but don’t have my LOTR in front of me. Saruman is the White, and is the highest ranking and most powerful of the order. Gandalf is the Grey and is second in rank and power. Radagast…well, forget about Radagast. As for the first part of your question, the more I think about it, the more difficult it seems. Gandalf is reincarnated as the White, but Saruman apparently doesn’t lose his rank and powers until Gandalf confronts him at Isengard, several days/weeks later. During that time, were there two “Whites”? Or had Saruman already lost his powers, but didn’t notice it? Saruman apparently is pretty much wrapped up in his bad self at this time, so he might not have realized he was no longer a Wizard. It has also occured to me, and this is pure speculation but it is fun, that when the Valar sent Gandalf back they really had to replace two Wizards: Gandalf, who had died, and Saruman, who had switched sides. One can imagine that they might have given Gandalf the White even more power than Saruman had ever had, both because he would need it in the upcoming War, and also as a reward for the sacrifice he had already made. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/57 "2001-09-06T02:48:54Z")
Remember, by the time Gandalf was “White”, Saruman had already renounced the White to become “Saruman of Many Colors”, and talked about how white could be broken. Gandalf commented that he who breaks a thing to learn more about it leaves the path of wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/58 "2001-09-06T03:07:19Z")
Gandalf is sent to aid the free people of Middle earth. He is specifically forbidden to contest with Sauron directly. Cirdan the Shipwright, one of the most powerful of elves in all of history recognizes his greatness and surrenders to him the Elven ring, to sustain him in his trials. Galadriel tries to have Gandalf made head of the White Council, but is unsuccessful, and Saruman is appointed instead. Sauruman is a student of magic, particularly the magic of Sauron. He falls prey to the desire for power, and mastery inherent in the One Ring. Galadriel is tempted as well, to seize this power, but refuses to even touch the ring. Gandalf does touch it, in Fellowship of the Ring, for a moment. He does not desire power or dominion over others. He does not overcome death, he is sent back to finish his task. Olorin was of the same race as Sauron, and Melian, and the guise of Gandalf was only an aspect of his being. When Gandalf confronts Sauruman he is there to offer him a chance to renounce his power. Sauruman refuses. Gandalf simply says, “Your staff is broken.” The staff breaks. Sauruman turns away, but Gandalf orders him to return and that order is obeyed even against Sauruman’s extreme effort to resist. Gandalf is already the White Wizard, and is offering Sauruman a chance to be simply a Good Wizard. So, it seems that Sauruman is the lesser in power, at least now. Perhaps that was true before, but Gandalf does not seek the center of authority. Several other moments occur when Gandalf simply says “This will happen.” and it does. He tells the Lord of the Nazgul to leave the gates of Minas Tirith, and to the doom that awaits him. The cock crows, foretelling the coming of dawn. The Nazgul leaves and is immediately destroyed. He tells Grima to get down in the dirt, and Grima does. He tells the Lord of Rohan that he is a messenger of hope, and a beam of sunlight shines down out of the clouds on him. Gandalf is not unable to do combat type magic, he is unwilling. He is also pretty much immune to it, by the end of the story. I think that Sauruman lost his power because of his choices of how to use that power. Since it was power given to him, he was not able to use it to do evil without reducing himself. Eventually, he is so weak that even a small party of Hobbits is more than a match for him. ## Tris “What has it got in its pocketeses?” ~ Gollum ~ ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/59 "2001-09-06T05:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > **I think that Sauruman lost his power because of his choices of how to use that power. Since it was power given to him, he was not able to use it to do evil without reducing himself. Eventually, he is so weak that even a small party of Hobbits is more than a match for him.** I agree partially, but was the power really ‘given’ to him? He was, after all, Maia. So at least some portion of the power he had was intrinsic to him, even though some of it was learned. My big question is this: How exactly did it come about that Saruman was the head of the council of the wise? The Silmarillion says (in _The Valaquenta_), “The wisest of the Maiar was Olorin.” So if he was the wisest, how did Saruman take power? Does the Silmarillion cover that in more detail? I’m only up to “Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor” so far. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174/60 "2001-09-06T05:39:44Z")
Remember that the Valar sent 5 Maiar to Middle Earth…Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and two un-named others, both colored blue. They two mystery maia supposedly went to the far east, and their deeds are unrecorded. Perhaps they averted a disaster as great as Sauron somewhere out there. But I want to talk about Radagast the Brown. We all know how Saruman/Curunir was corrupted by his love of knowledge and his pride. But what was Radagast’s failing? He seems to be only concered with the animals and such. You’d think they would have picked a more steadfast Maiar. Did Radagast simply lose heart? Did he give in to despair? Or did he grow to love the simple pleasures of Middle Earth too much to care about larger issues? Oh, one more question. Tom Bombadil is definately a Maiar of some sort. But was Goldberry an elf? Tom calls her “the river’s daughter”, but does that mean that she wasn’t an elf? I always had the impression that she was, but re-reading the passage reveals that it is not really stated. Any opinions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-question/79174.md?page=4)