# Lord of the Rings questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 26, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939 "2005-10-26T02:25:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/21 "2005-10-26T07:03:57Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Something I’ve wondered about for years since I was a little kid constantly rewatching the animated _Return of the King_: Could you drop a nuke on the Ring and destroy it that way? In other words, was the only real requirement to destroy the Ring lots and lots of heat or was there a need to work the magic against itself by dropping it in Mount Doom? My guess is it would work. The lesser rings can be destroyed by lesser fires, such as dragonsfire. IIRC at one point Gandalf says that not even the greatest dragon had breath hot enough to destroy the One Ring. These two things to me imply that _enough_ heat _would_ melt the Ring; they just didn’t have access to it. Or, you could do something I heard suggested at another website, and duct tape the Ring to an nuke-tipped ICBM and launch it at Mount Doom; that way, you play it safe. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/22 "2005-10-26T08:16:35Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Nah. I’m not sure nuclear fusion would even work in Middle-Earth. The sun was the magical fruit of one of the two trees, not a big bag of helium. You misspelled “hydrogen” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/23 "2005-10-26T08:23:42Z")
Why did wearing the ring not render Sauron invisible, or did it, in the books? \only seen the movies \keep meaning to read the books, honest ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/24 "2005-10-26T09:49:07Z")
I hypothesize that anyone able to fully control a Ring of Power was not rendered invisible by it. It caused invisibility by yanking the wearer into the wraith-world, and if worn for long enough this became irreversible. Note: The Elven rings didn’t do this, largely because Sauron had nothing to do with their making. Rather, it seems as though the _ring_ became invisible, which is why Galadriel’s ring could be seen only by Frodo, and neither Elrond’s nor Gandalf’s were visible until they chose to reveal them at the end of the story. Note 2: The rings did not work as advertised on dwarves. This was down to how Aule (the Smith of the “Gods”) had made them, as he chose to emphasise toughness and indomitability. All it did was emphasise their greed for gold, and though this sometimes had effects that Sauron found useful, it never allowed him the control he sought for. Note 3: Hobbits were unduly tough and also took inconceivably longer to be corrupted; five centuries of intermittent wear was not enough to make a wraith out of Smeagol. We never saw the One Ring put on by anyone who could control it, with the slight exception of Tom Bombadil (_), and it is truer to say that it could not control him - mostly because he had all he wanted already, could easily have had more if he had had the slightest desire, and so could not want anything the Ring could confer. (_ Though this is only hearsay to you, **Mangetout** ) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/25 "2005-10-26T10:30:06Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Why did wearing the ring not render Sauron invisible, or did it, in the books? AFAIK it is never explicitely mentioned in the books either way. But bear in mind that Sauron was a master of altering his apperance and form ever since he ‘incarnated’ as Morgoth’s servant. He could make himself appear as whatever he wanted and even change his physical form, becoming on one occasion a giant wolf. Those powers were diminished a bit after his physical body was destroyed on Numenor but he remained the ultimate shape-shifter and illusionist. Since the ring was designed by Sauron, with the infusion of his own powers I would guess that he would have near total control over his appearance while wearing the ring. IOW the ring might make him invisible by default, but his inherent abilities to alter his appearance would override that effortlessly. Aside from the restriction on never adopting a fair form Sauron always appeared exactly as Sauron wished to appear. Simply being invisible wouldn’t change that at all, people would still see exactly what he wanted them to see, even if he was technically invisible. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/26 "2005-10-26T10:53:37Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why didn’t the Dwarves move into Moria in strength if its the only place for True Silver (Moria Silver)? If its valuable enough that a coat of mail made out of it is worth more than the cost of the Shire, why didn’t the Dwarves bend everything they had to the task of taking Moria back…no matter the cost? Why only a small group of adventurers and not the entire Dwarf nation(s), perhaps with the help of wizards like Gandalf…for a cut of course. 🙂 > -XT There’s an answer to this, in effect, in the appendices to “The Return of the King”. Thror, grandfather of Thorin Oakenshield (the dwarf in charge of the quest in “The Hobbit”, friend and overlord to Gimli’s father Gloin who was present at the Council of Elrond) went to Moria with just a friend or two when he was old and getting senile (and possibly corrupted by one of the Seven Rings, though he gave it to his son Thrain before he left). Mostly he was after a look-round, but when he got there he wandered in like a king returning to his throne. Shortly afterwards his severed head was thrown out of the door by Azog, the chief of the Orcs that lived there, along with some taunts to any friends that might be present (they were spotted, hiding rather ineffectively) to the effect that any other dwarves that stuck their noses into Moria would be treated the same way. This news was borne back to Thrain, and in due course the shit hit the fan. An enormous alliance of dwarves swept the various tunnels, caves and warrens of the Misty Mountains and Grey Mountains over the next few years. Some mighty horrible and unprincipled fighting went on. Eventually there was an _unfeasibly_ big battle in the Dimrill Dale (Nanduhirion in Elvish, Azanulbizar in Khuzdul) and enormous slaughter on both sides. It was a truly legendary bloodbath “at the memory of which the Orcs still shudder and the Dwarves weep” in which, among other things, Thorin lost his shield and hastily cut himself a stout club to parry with, and so got his surname, and Dain, then quite a young dwarf, personally killed Azog; at which, the Orcs routed and were slaughtered as they ran. (It had been a no-quarter conflict from the outset.) At this point, there was indeed a suggestion to retake Moria. But “Durin’s Bane”, then not known to be a Balrog, had been spotted lurking inside the mines, and the dwarves had spent so much in blood and treasure that they were barely fit to go back home and rebuild their lives, let alone see off the horror that had driven them out of Moria in the first place. Footnote: Dwarves ordinarily entombed their dead in stone, not earth. But the number of the dead was so great that they could not do this, and so they unwillingly built an enormous funeral pyre. They did not like to treat their dead this way; but for ever afterwards, a dwarf might say of such and such an ancestor “he was a burned dwarf”, and that was enough. ---
**Author:** ![Re\_PT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a698b9/32.png) [@Re\_PT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Re_PT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/27 "2005-10-26T10:58:23Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The situation in Arnor got more complicated. Several hundred years after Isildur’s death, the kingdom split into thirds: Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur. The royal line continued in Arthedain but died out in the other two, and Rhudaur fell under the influence of the bad guys (specifics escape me right now). Didn’t Rhudaur just come under the influence of Angmar and the inhabitants turn _eeevil_ becoming the Dunlendings eventually (no more specifics needed)? On a side note, was the storm on Caradhras(sp) the result of Sauron (possibly acting through someone) or Saruman? The Witch-King managed to cause bad weather across Arnor I believe, and there’s that bad winter in the Shire, along with the attack by Wolves and Goblins - exact specifics fail me at work unfortunately. So, did Saruman on his own try to steer the ring through the gap of Isenguard, or was Sauron just being generally nasty for similar reasons? PT ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/28 "2005-10-26T11:30:15Z")
> [@Re: PT](#): > > Didn’t Rhudaur just come under the influence of Angmar and the inhabitants turn _eeevil_ becoming the Dunlendings eventually (no more specifics needed)? No, the Dunlendings are a separate race of Men, related to the Easterlings. Rhudaur did come under the influence of Angmar, if by “influence” you mean “annexation”. Not that there was much to annex by that time. The Plague had almost depopulated Rhudaur and Cardolan anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Re\_PT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a698b9/32.png) [@Re\_PT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Re_PT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/29 "2005-10-26T12:01:37Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > No, the Dunlendings are a separate race of Men, related to the Easterlings. Rhudaur did come under the influence of Angmar, if by “influence” you mean “annexation”. I thought that some Dunlendings moved into Rhudaur, becoming the majority and thus prompting the annexation? Or perhaps I’m confusing them with inhabitants from Angmar moving in to occupy. Time to reread my sources (and not the MERP source books necessarily) - it’s been several years… PT ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/30 "2005-10-26T12:23:45Z")
The problem with LotR threads is, come back a few hours later, and there’s two or three hundred more responses! > [@](#): > > Well, I suppose the question is, if you could make indestructable rings, why not swords or armor as well? The purpose wasn’t to make an indestructible ring, that was just a side-effect. The purpose was for Sauron to put his power into the ring, and the ring somehow acts as a magical magnifier of that power. It was a gamble on Sauron’s part, based on his lust for power: by putting so much of his power into the ring, he himself was weakened. But, at the same time, the ring would magnify and focus his power. Once he’d put so much of his power into the ring, he would have been nuts to spend more of his power making magical armor – he’d have been left weakened (but encased in invulnerable armor.) He wasn’t trying to protect himself, he was trying to conquer the universe (so to speak.) Why didn’t others make invulnerable armor etc? Well, some tried – the coat of mithril, for instance, is pretty well-nigh impenetrable. (Yeah, well, it’s chain links, so a thin needle could slip through the rings, perhaps aka Shelob’s sting) Magic in Tolkien seems to work like some sort of psychic energy. It can be focused, it can be harnessed, if you’re powerful enough. It’s not like traditional magic that anyone can learn if they study hard, it’s inherent in your personal charisma/power. > [@Blake](#): > > But bear in mind that Sauron was a master of altering his apperance and form ever since he ‘incarnated’ as Morgoth’s servant. He could make himself appear as whatever he wanted and even change his physical form, becoming on one occasion a giant wolf. Those powers were diminished a bit after his physical body was destroyed on Numenor but he remained the ultimate shape-shifter and illusionist. I respectfully disagree, **Blake**. Once he was destroyed in the fall of Numenor, he lost his shape-shifting abilities, and became just an evil spirit of malice. (One reason that it would have been dreadful beyond words if Peter Jackson had actually gone through with the idea of a sword fight between Aragorn and Sauron!) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/31 "2005-10-26T12:31:50Z")
> [@Re: PT](#): > > I thought that some Dunlendings moved into Rhudaur, becoming the majority and thus prompting the annexation? Or perhaps I’m confusing them with inhabitants from Angmar moving in to occupy. > > Time to reread my sources (and not the MERP source books necessarily) - it’s been several years… > > PT It’s possible. I don’t have access to all my sources here at work, though, so I’d have to look it up later. Remember, though, that the purpose of Angmar was not the purpose of a more conventional country. The Witch-King wasn’t looking out for his own or his nation’s power or comfort. The only reason Angmar existed was to harry, harass and destroy Arnor. The occupation of Rhudaur’s only purpose was to create a forward base to finish the job with Arthedain. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/32 "2005-10-26T12:57:30Z")
The one ring could NOT be destroyed, nothing could harm it, period. But it could be unmade. This is smithing magic, the only way to “unmake” an item is to use the tools, forge, etc. that were used to “make” it. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien “The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save where it was made … in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring’s power of lust, that … it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own{Sauron}) to injure it.” [L #131 (153-154)] [FAQ of the Rings](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-SauronWeaker) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/33 "2005-10-26T13:19:23Z")
> [@](#): > > First off, what exactly is the One Ring made of? It looks like gold but its supposedly practically indestructable. Silly question perhaps as a follow up to that but…why a ring? My son wanted to know why no one made a sword (in my case, why not armor?) that is indestructable if they could do it for a ring? People have taolked about it’s physical power. ABout that, Tolkein makes no mention, and it’s irrelevant. The RIng is made of Hatred. Well, also cruelty and laice and will to power and Friedriche Nietzche’s left ear. Remember that line from the movie: “He poured his … will to dominate all life into it.” That wasn’t joking. The Ring _is_ Sauron. That is why he was broken when it was undone. This is part fo a theme of Tolkein’s. In order to use power, it must be externalized in some fashion. When good externalizes power, it can nevertheless retain its wisdom, and so grow in stature. Evil externalizes its power, but is dimished thereby. Sauron, for example, once had the ability to change form, among other things. He lost these powers as he created more potent servants and did evil deeds. The Ring was a attempt to enhance his power further. Sauron with the Ring was more powerful than before he had made it. By the time of the books, he was actually well on his way to regaining all of that power even _without_ the Ring - with it, he could have become more powerful than ever. The Ring’s power lay in its ability to dominate others, because that’s what Sauron does. With it, one could cause an enemy army to take flight in fear, or meekly lay down their weapons and die. The one who wielded it would become a mighty ruler indeed. Invisibility was merely a side effect. It drew the bearer partly into the spirit world. For those of strong will, or who were already aware of the spirit world, this hardly mattered and they could control it. Mostly, however, it simply enhanced whatever powers the one possessing it already had. A great warrior would become greater, a greaty spy would become craftier - Saruman would have become so convincing that all of Middle Earth would have knelt at this feet willingly. The problem lay in the fact that Sauron’s will was what gave it strength. You can’t use the Ring without Sauron’s corruption infecting you, and few could give the blasted thing up willingly. First off, it’s not in the nature of mortals or immortals to elightly hand over something that precious or potent. Second, the nature of the Ring meant that would not willingly do so. (The Ring theoretically might have been able to control this, but it was sauron after all, and naturally thought of itself and Sauron as the most _precious_ things in Middle Earth, and so influenced all who touched it.) But the Ring was alive. Not very bright, perhaps, but perceptive and capable of powerfully influencing those around it. > [@](#): > > What exact powers does Gandalf have? What can he do? He really only seems to use his powers openly in the first book (fighting the Worgs and then later the Balrog)…why? Gandalf has a lot more power than he shows. His ultimate power is the direct manipulation of reality. In theory, he could simply hold up a piece of rock and declare it to be gold. However, in these latter days, Arda (the world) has become less tolerant of such things, and in any event his powers are limited now because he has taken a more -or-less human form. Gandalf the Grey died atop the mines of Moria. However, the powers of the world saw that his task was not done and that he would be needed to stop Saruman, so sent him back as Gandalf the White. His powers to hearten and heal were increased. In any case, that is why he was sent in the first place; not to destroy the Shadow himself, but to rekindle (fire metaphor intended) the strength of others. In short, he is an angel, and I’m not joking in the least. > [@](#): > > You’ll notice that the wind that dispersed his essence came from the West. I read that as the Valar rejecting his spirit and simply destroying him. No; like Sauron, however, his spirit was diminished and left weak and helpless. He is alive, if one can call it that, but unable to do anything. Whether he is inside or outside the circle of the world is irrelevant. This is pretty much what happened to Sauron. When the Ring was destroyed, he lost all his power, becoming nothing more than an ill wind. > [@](#): > > IIRC at one point Gandalf says that not even the greatest dragon had breath hot enough to destroy the One Ring. These two things to me imply that enough heat would melt the Ring; they just didn’t have access to it. That particular line is a bit vague, and probably not worth reading much into. In any event, even the lesser Dragons were quite capable of reducing man or elf to ash in seconds, which means if we are going with the “heat” theory that their breath is, well, ridiculously hot. > [@](#): > > On a side note, was the storm on Caradhras(sp) the result of Sauron (possibly acting through someone) or Saruman? Actually, in the book Caradhras itself was the cause. That was one mean mountain! > [@](#): > > It’s not like traditional magic that anyone can learn if they study hard, it’s inherent in your personal charisma/power. There is some magic with anyone can use if they study its possibilities. Sorcery, for example, requies little more than a vicious will. Many of the elven and dwarf-crafts were merely well-practiced works. Gandalf implicitly states that there are a great many spells in the world in every language. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/34 "2005-10-26T13:25:47Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Actually, in the book Caradhras itself was the cause. That was one mean mountain! In the movie as well – when we saw Saruman chanting a ‘spell’ atop Orthanc, he was actually imploring Caradhras to destroy the Fellowship. The EE DVD makes the clear. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/35 "2005-10-26T13:31:57Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > The purpose wasn’t to make an indestructible ring, that was just a side-effect. The purpose was for Sauron to put his power into the ring, and the ring somehow acts as a magical magnifier of that power. It was a gamble on Sauron’s part, based on his lust for power: by putting so much of his power into the ring, he himself was weakened. But, at the same time, the ring would magnify and focus his power. Once he’d put so much of his power into the ring, he would have been nuts to spend more of his power making magical armor – he’d have been left weakened (but encased in invulnerable armor.) He wasn’t trying to protect himself, he was trying to conquer the universe (so to speak.) And, since the One Ring is so badass, we forget that its powers as used in the two wars of the Ring are actually somewhat secondary to Sauron’s original plans. Sauron came back on the scene when the elven ringsmiths were first making their rings of power. Sauron, more than anything else, wanted to control those pesky elves (who had been the main thorn in his and Morgoth’s side for an Age). So he “helped” them in their ring-making, and secretly installed a hacker’s backdoor–one that would allow him (via the One Ring, that he was making in secret) to control anyone wearing the other rings. But the elves were too smart, took their rings off, and forced Sauron to wage war the old fashioned way. So while the One Ring has tremendous power to control minds, etc., on its own, that’s just sort of its second-best feature list. Its main purpose (never properly implemented) was to enslave the elves who were wearing other Rings. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/36 "2005-10-26T13:34:58Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > There was about 100 years between the fall of Numenor and the coming of Elendil the Tall to Middle Earth. (I know Qadgop will be crushed if I don’t leave Elendil’s memorable quote for him to give.) _Elendil steps off boat_ “Man, 100 _years_. Let’s see that punk Odysseus top **that**!” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/37 "2005-10-26T14:00:32Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > …We never saw the One Ring put on by anyone who could control it, with the slight exception of Tom Bombadil… I don’t think Bombadil could control the ring, it simply meant nothing to him. > [@Gandalf](#): > > “The Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring himself, nor break its power over others… And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind.” > [@Malacandra](#): > > …and it is truer to say that _it_ could not control _him_ mostly because he had all he wanted already, could easily have had more if he had had the slightest desire, and so could not want anything the Ring could confer. Not because of what he had, but because of who he was. [Tom Bombadil The Master](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html) [Who is Tom Bombadil](http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/tombomb.html) [What is Tom Bombadil](http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Bombadil.html) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/38 "2005-10-26T14:31:28Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > In the movie as well – when we saw Saruman chanting a ‘spell’ atop Orthanc, he was actually imploring Caradhras to destroy the Fellowship. The EE DVD makes the clear. It was largely implied in the FotR that Caradhras had a spirit. This was probably a spirit on par with Old Man Willow. There were many lesser spirits, good and bad that took residence in Middle Earth. Even the original Ents were spirits called in. > [@](#): > > Yavanna feared for her works, since Melkor had marred so many of them. She told Manwe her fear, asking if nothing of her making would “be free from the dominion of others”. He asked what she would reserve, and she answered for the olvar, the plants, for they could not flee as could the kelvar , the animals. She wanted the trees to speak for all those with roots, and punish those who wronged them. She told Manwe what she remembered of such trees in the Song: > “For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Iluvatar amid the wind and the rain.” > Manwe considered, given a vision by Eru Iluvatar as he did so, then told Yavanna of what he had learned: > “When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it **will summon spirits from afar** , and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. **For a time:** while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.” > Then he speaks of the eagles separately of eagles flying before the Children awake. When speaking of where the eagles and the others will be housed, he says," > “But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.” I bolded a few key points. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.Pepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sgt.Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/39 "2005-10-26T15:19:48Z")
Whoa, great thread. It’s inspiring me to re-read The Hobbit and LOTR. I didn’t know Sauron had a master, I always thought he was the big baddy of the Middle Earth world. Kinda remind me of Star Wars Episode I where after the defeat of that Sith guy it’s mentioned that there’s always two, an apprentice and a master. _cut away to profile shot of Radagast_ …the sequal will again have the rings, only they’ll shoot out lightsaber’s! And instead of the force, it’ll be the Schwartz! Ok, that moment has past. Concerning Tom Bombadil, I checked out those links, but they’re awfully long and filled with elements of the Tolkien world that I’m not familar with. So, in short, what’s his story, and how does he fit into it all? I’m just looking for a quick summery, nothing complex as with the provided links. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939/40 "2005-10-26T15:25:06Z")
Tom Bombadil is an Enigma. He doesn’t fit in. He is older than the children of Eru and is of unknown origin. He is probably just a powerful spirit who clad himself in the image of humankind as he perceived it in the Song of the Ainur. Tom is. Treat him as a mystery. Don’t worry too much about. Tolkien did not even know who or what he was. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-questions/327939.md?page=3)