# "Lord Peter Wimsey" - whence the title? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 24, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708 "2008-04-24T17:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/1 "2008-04-24T17:04:25Z")
(This question has been sparked by a novel, but is related to real-world traditions, namely courtesy titles in English nobility, so I figured out it would make better in GQ than in Café. Mods, please move if I’m wrong.) I’m reading the mystery novel _Whose Body?_ by English author Dorothy Sayers. Its protagonist is Lord Peter Wimsey, an English aristocrat and stereotypical gentleman whom Sayers created as her serial detective. Now I also read about courtesy titles in British peerage, and this got me think about the title of teh fictitious “Lord Peter Wimsey.” Peter’s mother is frequently referred to as the Dowager Duchess of Denver, from which I conclude that Peter’s father was the late Duke of Denver (whose dukedom, I suppose, is also fictitious, but let’s not bother about that). If Peter had been his father’s eldest son, he would have inherited the title and be Duke hinmself, but “Lord” is, as far as I know, not a form of address used for Dukes. It is mentioned several times in the novel that Peter has in fact an elder brother, so I wondered whether the “Lord” in his name could refer to a courtesy title. As far as I know, courtesy titles in England are minor titles (i.e., lesser than the title the titleholder usually uses) which are actually held by a peer, but customarily used to refer to the peer’s sons even during the titleholder’s lifetime. So, if the Duke of Denver also held the title of Marquess Soandso, his eldest son would go by the Marquess title, which he (the son) would inherit as his own title upon his father’s death. But that doesn’t explain Wimsey’s Lordship, does it? If there were courtesy titles involved, these would have passed to the eldest son of Peter’s elder brother upon their father’s death, since with this death, the title itself passed from father to eldest son. Peter imself, as younger son and later younger brother of the Duke, would never get a courtesy title. Did Sayers simply goof the thing up, or am I getting something wrong about courtesy titles? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/2 "2008-04-24T17:08:28Z")
It’s the normal process for second and later sons of noblemen to get a courtesy title like Lord Peter Wimsey. Sir Winston Churchill’s grandfather was 7th Duke of Marlborough; his father was the third son, and so was Lord Randolph Churchill. Sir Winston did not inherit Lord Randolph’s title: his knighthood was given to him in his own right. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/3 "2008-04-24T17:32:45Z")
[Here’s](http://crackmonkey.org/pipermail/crackmonkey/2001-April/017569.html) a good explanation: > [@](#): > > \> Courtesy titles: > \> > \> The eldest son and heir of a noble can take the most prestigious of > \> his father’s “lesser” titles as a courtesy title. The father still > \> legally holds the title: the son merely makes use of it. (sons of > \> Dukes who _have_ no lesser titles are regarded as being courtesy > \> Earls). > \> > \> The other children of a duke or marquess are allowed to use the title > \> Lord/Lady before their own full name. If a daughter marries, she > \> continues to use the title “Lady” before her new, married name. > \> Younger children of lesser nobles use the title “The Honourable” > \> rather than “Lord/Lady”. > \> > \> The children of the eldest son, if they are born while their > \> grandfather is still alive, also use the courtesy title Lord/Lady or > \> The Honourable, as appropriate. Children of younger sons and > \> daughters have no title. > \> > \> Example: Mortimer Wimsey, the Duke of Denver, is also the Earl of > \> Saint-George. > \> > \> His eldest son will be called Earl of Saint-George until his father > \> dies (Note that courtesy titles miss out the “The”: the father is the > \> Earl of Saint-George, the son is Earl of Saint-George) > \> > \> The eldest son’s own children would be called Lord John Wimsey and > \> Lady Jane Wimsey. (when his grandfather the old Duke dies, Paul will > \> become Earl of Saint-George in turn). > \> > \> The Duke’s younger children would be called Lord Peter Wimsey and Lady > \> Mary Wimsey. If Mary marries, she can continue to prefix her married > \> name with “Lady”: eg Lady Mary Parker. Her children would be plain > \> Peter Parker and Janet Parker. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/4 "2008-04-24T18:33:41Z")
**Exapno Mapcase** - brilliant cite! Not only clear explanation but based on the noble Wimsey family. Mind you it does give away some of the plot lines from the other books 😃 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/5 "2008-04-24T21:34:09Z")
… and, of course, if Peter ever takes a wife who does not have her own title, let’s say for the sake of example that her name might be, oh, I dunno, Harriet Vane (I’m just making this up so it won’t be a plot spoiler), then she would be called Lady Peter. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/6 "2008-04-24T21:50:26Z")
An example of a courtesy title: Prince William. He’s technically a commoner despite the fact that he will one day be King. He’s only Prince because his dad is Prince of Wales - William doesn’t yet have any title of his own. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/7 "2008-04-24T22:01:13Z")
In one of the novels, Lord Peter gently corrects an ignorant person (an American, perhaps? I don’t remember) who calls him Lord Wimsey instead of Lord Peter. I believe he makes some remark about how the man must have confused him with his brother. (I may not be recalling this right.) What’s that about? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/8 "2008-04-24T22:04:32Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] … and, of course, if Peter ever takes a wife who does not have her own title, let’s say for the sake of example that her name might be, oh, I dunno, Harriet Vane (I’m just making this up so it won’t be a plot spoiler), then she would be called Lady Peter. [/QUOTE] Similarly, Miss Jennie Jerome became [Lady Randolph Churchill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Randolph_Churchill) before she became young Winston’s mother. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/9 "2008-04-24T22:13:33Z")
[QUOTE=WF Tomba] In one of the novels, Lord Peter gently corrects an ignorant person (an American, perhaps? I don’t remember) who calls him Lord Wimsey instead of Lord Peter. I believe he makes some remark about how the man must have confused him with his brother. (I may not be recalling this right.) What’s that about? [/QUOTE] You address gentlemen with these courtesy titles as “Lord” plus their first name, just as you address baronets and knights as “Sir” plus their first name. The use of the first name is not informal in this context: you would do so after only just having met the guy. In writing, you could refer to him as “Lord Peter” or “Lord Peter Wimsey” – and possibly as just “Wimsey” if you are referring to others by their surnames. Similarly: “Sir Winston”, “Sir Winston Churchill” or just “Churchill”, but never ever “Sir Churchill”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/10 "2008-04-24T22:19:19Z")
[QUOTE=MarcusF] **Exapno Mapcase** - brilliant cite! Not only clear explanation but based on the noble Wimsey family. Mind you it does give away some of the plot lines from the other books 😃 [/QUOTE] I thought everybody knew that Lord Peter was Spiderman’s grandfather. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/11 "2008-04-24T22:39:02Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] You address gentlemen with these courtesy titles as “Lord” plus their first name, just as you address baronets and knights as “Sir” plus their first name. The use of the first name is not informal in this context: you would do so after only just having met the guy. In writing, you could refer to him as “Lord Peter” or “Lord Peter Wimsey” – and possibly as just “Wimsey” if you are referring to others by their surnames. Similarly: “Sir Winston”, “Sir Winston Churchill” or just “Churchill”, but never ever “Sir Churchill”. [/QUOTE] I get that part, but I somehow took from the episode that you could call his brother Lord Wimsey. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/12 "2008-04-24T22:52:38Z")
[QUOTE=WF Tomba] I get that part, but I somehow took from the episode that you could call his brother Lord Wimsey. [/QUOTE] That doesn’t seem right to me, unless he has a title like “Viscount Wimsey” or “Baron Wimsey”, i.e., the title were the sane as the surname. Perhaps Lord Peter was stretching things a bit there. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/13 "2008-04-24T23:19:45Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] That doesn’t seem right to me, unless he has a title like “Viscount Wimsey” or “Baron Wimsey”, i.e., the title were the sane as the surname. Perhaps Lord Peter was stretching things a bit there. [/QUOTE] Well, it’s possible, but from what I’ve seen it’s not common for inherited titles. Usually there’s a family name, Wimsey in this case, and Churchill in the case of the Dukes of Marlborough, and the name of the title which is different. Higher peers (earls and above) usually also have additional titles, one of which will be born by his eldest son, and if applicable, his eldest son’s eldest son as well. The Flyte family from “Brideshead Revisited” is a typical illustration. The head of the family and only true peer is Alex, Marquis of Marchmain, aka Lord Marchmain. Bridey, his eldest son, whose Christian name is never revealed, is the Earl of Brideshead by courtesy, but still a commoner. He could have been an MP. And the younger brother Lord Sebastian Flyte is similar to Peter Wimsey (except for the keen deductive mind of the one and the alcoholism of the other). On the other hand, life peers, like Lord Olivier and (I’m sure one day, just you wait) Lord McCartney) typically use their family name for their title as well, but this need not be the case. On reviewing my example, I could be wrong about Lord Marchmain being the only peer. I think the wife (Lady Marchmain) is considered a true peer as well. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/14 "2008-04-25T00:00:52Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] That doesn’t seem right to me, unless he has a title like “Viscount Wimsey” or “Baron Wimsey”, i.e., the title were the sane as the surname. Perhaps Lord Peter was stretching things a bit there. [/QUOTE] It’s possible that one of his ancestors war enobled as Earl or Viscount Wimsey and a few generations later the incumbant Lord Wimsey was created a duke. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/15 "2008-04-25T02:22:12Z")
he would be lord peter the way that william is prince william. lord peter is not the title carrier, he is related to the title carrier or the heir presumtive to the title, who would be lord wimsey, and his oldest brother. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/16 "2008-04-25T07:30:03Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] On reviewing my example, I could be wrong about Lord Marchmain being the only peer. I think the wife (Lady Marchmain) is considered a true peer as well. [/QUOTE] I doubt it. Lady Marchmain would have taken her rank as a marchioness from her husband, the Marquess of Marchmain. She didn’t hold a peerage in her own right. > [@alphaboi867](#): > > It’s possible that one of his ancestors war enobled as Earl or Viscount Wimsey and a few generations later the incumbant Lord Wimsey was created a duke. The Wiki entry for the [Duke of Denver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_denver) gives a lot of (presumably authentic) genealogical history for the Wimseys, including the title Baron wimsey. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/17 "2008-04-25T11:48:45Z")
Indeed a perfect link, **Exapno Mapcase** - it covers exactly the question I asked. Thanks! [QUOTE=Giles] That doesn’t seem right to me, unless he has a title like “Viscount Wimsey” or “Baron Wimsey”, i.e., the title were the sane as the surname. Perhaps Lord Peter was stretching things a bit there. [/QUOTE] But even if the Duke also had another, lesser, title which would use “Lord” as an address - wouldn’t he just go by the dukedom and more or less ignore the lesser titles? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/18 "2008-04-25T17:55:26Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] … and, of course, if Peter ever takes a wife who does not have her own title, let’s say for the sake of example that her name might be, oh, I dunno, Harriet Vane (I’m just making this up so it won’t be a plot spoiler), then she would be called Lady Peter. [/QUOTE] This aspect of younger sons’ courtesy titles makes me wonder if their parents sometimes choose names for them that won’t sound odd in this situation. If the younger son has a name like Mortimer, for example, then his wife becomes Lady Mortimer which does sound better to my ears than Lady John or Lady Peter. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/19 "2008-04-25T18:02:11Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] If the younger son has a name like Mortimer, for example, then his wife becomes Lady Mortimer which does sound better to my ears than Lady John or Lady Peter. [/QUOTE] And there’s [Princess Michael of Kent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Michael_of_Kent), whose name does sound very odd. ---
**Author:** ![Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708/20 "2008-04-25T18:13:26Z")
While we’re on the subject of Lord Peter, something I’ve wondered: is his second name, “Death”, pronounced like “Heath”? I’ve never seen that name anywhere else. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lord-peter-wimsey-whence-the-title/446708.md?page=2)