# Lori Drew Indicted on Federal Charges in Megan Meier Cyberbullying Suicide **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482 "2008-05-15T20:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/81 "2008-11-18T01:50:29Z")
I agree that Lori Drew is a foul excuse for a human who got some thrill out of taunting a teenager. But when it comes down to it, Megan Meier killed herself because she had a chemical imbalance in her brain. She didn’t kill herself because someone was mean to her, she didn’t kill herself because she was unpopular. She died because her brain did not work right. Fine, go ahead and charge Drew with harassment and fraud and conspiracy. Don’t say that said harassment/fraud/conspiracy caused Meier to kill herself, because it didn’t. Someone who’s so fragile that a MySpace nastygram will “cause” them to commit suicide probably belongs in an inpatient psychiatric program, not living at home with working parents. That’s someone who needs constant supervision, and to ascribe any one cause, beyond their own actions, to their death is ridiculous. I’m not saying that Meier’s parents are to blame, either - we can’t pin the blame on anyone, because…well, it’s suicide. No one forces someone else to commit suicide. Lori Drew is pretty much a bitch, though. ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/82 "2008-11-18T02:37:05Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > If because you know that someone you hate has high blood pressure and cardiac arrythmia, you send them a package with a device to make a loud flash and bang on opening, and they have a heart attack and die, are you a criminal? > > What if you stood across the room, pointed a gun loaded with blanks at their head and pulled the trigger? > > How about you wedge their apartment door closed, set a fire in a trash can outside their door, and pull the fire alarm? If they fall and die while climbing down from a fifth floor ledge, are you liable? If I call you a poop-head and you burst into tears, flinging yourself off the nearest cliff, am I criminally liable? I see what you’re trying to say, but there’s an entire spectrum of intent and maliciousness. In this case I don’t think Lori Drew can be held personally accountable for the death. I suppose we’ll find out. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/83 "2008-11-18T02:47:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An update – Ms. Drew’s trial is set to begin this week. > > The judge has ruled that the jury can be told of Megan’s suicide. This is, to my eyes, a questionable decision, since she’s being tried for the violation of the terms of service, and the fact that a suicide resulted is not legally relevant… unless her defense does something to make it relevant, like argue “no harm done/minor violation.” Defendant moves to exclude the evidence: [http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewMot.pdf](http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewMot.pdf) (grounds obvious) Prosecution Opposes: [http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewOppI.pdf](http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewOppI.pdf) (expansive definition of relevance under FRE; goes to intent to further a tortious act, which is an element of the offense; explains defendant’s conduct) files a second Opp: [http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewOppII.pdf](http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewOppII.pdf) (tries to bolster element of tort=element of crime argument; argues the death also goes to defendant’s knowledge that her access was unauthorized) The judge denied the motion at a hearing and only entered a minute order that says the motion is granted for the reasons stated on the record. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/84 "2008-11-18T02:54:51Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > But when it comes down to it, Megan Meier killed herself because she had a chemical imbalance in her brain. She didn’t kill herself because someone was mean to her, she didn’t kill herself because she was unpopular. She died because her brain did not work right. Total fucking bullshit. She was deliberately harassed and tormented by an ADULT posing as a potential new boyfriend. Lori Drew should be hanged and quartered, and I’m positive the judge & jury would agree with me, if our society still allowed such things. Megan’s parents treated her like shit, too. Probably because they got bullied in school as well, and never got over it. I’ll forgive them, however, because they clearly did not deserve to lose their daughter over this. They learned their lesson. Chemical imbalance? Shit…with that kind of double-bind, any person’s brain would become unbalanced. Fuck you, **NinjaChick** for dismissing this child’s torment as a mere “chemical imbalance.” Fuck you with a wet, sticky dildo bathed in dog’s vomit. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/85 "2008-11-18T03:14:34Z")
Jesus, **KGS** , can you not be an idiot for, like, five minutes? **NinjaChick** raised an entirely valid point: as cruel as what happened to her was, most people faced with those circumstances do not run off and kill themselves. Megan was not a healthy person. She was unusually vulnerable to that sort of emotional manipulation, and dramatically over-reacted to the situation in a way that a healthy person would not have. That doesn’t mean that Lori Drew isn’t the Douchebag of the Century, but it does diminish (if not totally obviate) her criminal responsibility for Megan’s suicide. And, incidentally, fuck you for writing off a serious medical condition as a “mere” chemical imbalance. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/86 "2008-11-18T03:28:09Z")
**Miller** , ISTR having read at one point that Lori Drew did know about Megan’s bouts with mental illness. These were families that had been friends for a time, so it’s far from impossible. If she did know about that, ISTM that she’s actually more responsible than a hypothetical stranger would be in a similar situation. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/87 "2008-11-18T04:52:59Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Total fucking bullshit. She was deliberately harassed and tormented by an ADULT posing as a potential new boyfriend. Lori Drew should be hanged and quartered, and I’m positive the judge & jury would agree with me, if our society still allowed such things. > > Megan’s parents treated her like shit, too. Probably because they got bullied in school as well, and never got over it. I’ll forgive them, however, because they clearly did not deserve to lose their daughter over this. They learned their lesson. Chemical imbalance? Shit…with that kind of double-bind, any person’s brain would become unbalanced. > > Fuck you, **NinjaChick** for dismissing this child’s torment as a mere “chemical imbalance.” Fuck you with a wet, sticky dildo bathed in dog’s vomit. Jesus christ, relax and learn how to read. I never said what happened wasn’t awful, I never said that Drew’s actions were in any way acceptable, and I never said that there was anything “mere” about depression. All I said was that if someone has a history of depression, has been bullied, has known self-esteem issues, and eventually commits suicide, you can’t point at any one thing and say, “this is why she died.” ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/88 "2008-11-18T06:38:57Z")
I think this sort of incident is the perfect reason for a wrongful-death suit. While it may be possible for the government to prove that fraud was committed here, I can’t help thinking that this prosecution would never have been undertaken if it were just about fraud. I don’t like that, and I agree that the stability and consistency of the legal system is more important than achieving the maximum punishment for every lowlife who happens to find a novel form of bad behavior. It would _not_ be a good idea to pass special laws protecting against a similar future incident, either, since there is not a great chance of such a thing happening again. Basically, I think Lori Drew should get her butt sued off and it should stop there. If she’s as nasty and messed up as she seems to be she’ll probably end up in jail someday anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ajb867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@ajb867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajb867)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/89 "2008-11-18T07:04:35Z")
Only one person has pointed out so far about the monetary cost of her defense. The charges are a stretch and if convicted will bring up issues that have already been pointed out. This woman **deserves** to go broke and live in a life of poverty. Not doing anything because “well there is no previous law to charge her with” is unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/90 "2008-11-18T15:40:38Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I think the judge is wrong. I also think the prosecutor should never have charged this as a crime. As reprehensible as Lori Drew is, I don’t think she should be criminally convicted. > > Sue the fuck out of her, yes. Criminal? No. Well… yes and no. I think she did break the law. It’s a small law, often violated, but it is a law, and if the prosecution can prove she violated it, they should. However… the suicide is absolutely irrelevant to the elements of her crime. So by putting that issue in front of a jury, they are making this crime about the death, and not the unauthorized access of a computer system. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/91 "2008-11-18T15:58:12Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Defendant moves to exclude the evidence: [http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewMot.pdf](http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewMot.pdf) (grounds obvious) > > Prosecution Opposes: [http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewOppI.pdf](http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewOppI.pdf) (expansive definition of relevance under FRE; goes to intent to further a tortious act, which is an element of the offense; explains defendant’s conduct) > > files a second Opp: [http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewOppII.pdf](http://www.gfactorconsulting.com/DrewDocs/DrewOppII.pdf) (tries to bolster element of tort=element of crime argument; argues the death also goes to defendant’s knowledge that her access was unauthorized) > > The judge denied the motion at a hearing and only entered a minute order that says the motion is granted for the reasons stated on the record. SO.. prosecution says, in essence, that since one element of one of the counts is the tort (intentional infliction of emotional distress) the suicide is relevant to show that emotional distress was actually inflicted. I don’t agree. That only becomes relevant if the defense argues that there was no emotional distress. They also make what amounts to a res gestae argument – we’re going to call all these people who will testify about what happened after the death, and how she changed her story, and what she did when she learned of the death. Again, I don’t see any of that as relevant unless the defense makes it relevant. Perhaps, when the motion was argued, the defense said, “Hey, our theory of the case is that she never heard of this kid,” and in that case I can see the point. But I very much doubt that’s what happened… ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/92 "2008-11-18T16:01:24Z")
This woman did a bit more than call this girl poopy head. She was an adult that purposely emotionally tormented a vulnerable teenaged girl. I know she’ll never be charged with murder, but I certainly think turnabout is fair play, and a power greater than her’s torments her to the brink. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/93 "2008-11-18T16:21:03Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > I agree that Lori Drew is a foul excuse for a human who got some thrill out of taunting a teenager. > > But when it comes down to it, Megan Meier killed herself because she had a chemical imbalance in her brain. She didn’t kill herself because someone was mean to her, she didn’t kill herself because she was unpopular. She died because her brain did not work right. I think you’re right here, both paragraphs. We’ve all had nasty shit said and done to us and none of us have killed ourselves for it. If that was a more common reaction the human race would be in trouble. I think Megan Meier was probably a suicide waiting to happen, and this just happened to be the trigger that set it off. I don’t think Lori Drew intended to cause Megan’s death and I don’t think she’s a repeat offender risk. All a murder conviction would do in this case is unnecessarily destroy one more life, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/94 "2008-11-18T16:35:37Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > WAG: it’s too hard to prove. Is it possible that this charge is part of a process of laying a foundation for future charges? I.e., if she’s convicted of defrauding Myspace, then it will be a matter of record that she is in fact a person behind the offending posts, making it easier to use these posts as evidence against her in another trial on charges more directly related to the harrassment? Does it work like that? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/95 "2008-11-18T16:42:15Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Does it work like that? > > -FrL- Generally not. \*E.g., \*[404 - Page Not Found](http://www.mobar.org/e4cace40-4d6b-4acd-a237-127ee910688c.aspx) (see discussion under heading “Offensive Use of Collateral Estoppel: Concepts of Mutuality in Criminal Cases”) ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/96 "2008-11-18T17:01:22Z")
I’ll be interested to see how this plays out. I don’t see how the suicide is legally relevant, but surely if the judge admitted it, he had a reason. What could it be? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/97 "2008-11-18T17:25:51Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Generally not. \*E.g., \*[404 - Page Not Found](http://www.mobar.org/e4cace40-4d6b-4acd-a237-127ee910688c.aspx) (see discussion under heading “Offensive Use of Collateral Estoppel: Concepts of Mutuality in Criminal Cases”) Wait, that seems to be _supporting_ the kind of move I described. It seems to be saying that once a fact has been established in one case, it takes a lot to question that fact in another case. The default, in other words, is to take it as established fact for all future cases. That’s exactly what I suggested/wondered-whether the prosecution was doing here–laying a foundation by establishing a fact in one case for use as evidence in another case. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/98 "2008-11-18T17:27:42Z")
Oopsie, I read the wrong part. Looking now at the part about _criminal_ cases (as you suggested) I see that things don’t happen that way. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/99 "2008-11-18T17:51:15Z")
> [@Silver\_Fire](#): > > If a friend related this story to me, minus the dead girl and fake boy parts but otherwise identical up to Megan storming off to her room and being left alone, as something that happened at her house with her daughter, I would think she was an inattentive parent at best. 😃 Wait. You were _serious_? Good, lord! If my parents jumped up to cuddle us every time my sister or I threw an enormous teenage hissy fit - stomping off to our rooms, yelling about how the whole world hated us - by the end of our teenage years, they’d have been so well-trained we’d have had them wrapped around our fingers. I had my share of “Fuck you, world!” outbursts, but I couldn’t come anywhere near competing with my sister’s hormonally fuelled “My life is _oooooover_! I wish I was never _born_! I hate my life!” tantrums. Granted we weren’t on medication or ever diagnosed with depression. We were just your standard, demented young teens, who went into emotional overdrive like teens do. Sometimes you just gotta let a kid flip out, have their tantrum, and when the dust settles, then try the rational discussion. Most parents do their best trying to guess which is a _real_ “my life is _so_ over!” catastrophe and which is just the standard, hormonal “my life is over” drama-of-the-week. I wouldn’t say Megan’s parents were inattentive, I’d say they just guessed wrong that time. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482/100 "2008-11-18T18:28:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree. That only becomes relevant if the defense argues that there was no emotional distress. What about the rule that: > [@](#): > > It is well settled that “the prosecution is not disabled at trial from proving every element of the charged offense and every relevant fact, even though the defendant fails to contest an issue or is willing to stipulate to a fact.” People v. Bounds , 171 Ill. 2d 1, 46, 662 N.E.2d 1168 (1995) [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=il&vol=1960697&invol=2](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=il&vol=1960697&invol=2) _and see_, _Old Chief v. United States_, 519 U.S. 172 (1997): > [@](#): > > the accepted rule that the prosecution is entitled to prove its case free from any defendant’s option to stipulate the evidence away rests on good sense. A syllogism is not a story, and a naked proposition in a courtroom may be no match for the robust evidence that would be used to prove it. People who hear a story interrupted by gaps of abstraction may be puzzled at the missing chapters, and jurors asked to rest a momentous decision on the story’s truth can feel put upon at being asked to take responsibility knowing that more could be said than they have heard. A convincing tale can be told with economy, but when economy becomes a break in the natural sequence of narrative evidence, an assurance that the missing link is really there is nevermore than second best. > > * * * > > prosecutor’s choice will generally survive a Rule 403 analysis when a defendant seeks to force the substitution of an admission for evidence creating a coherent narrative of his thoughts and actions in perpetrating the offense for which he is being tried. [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=u20051](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=u20051) I don’t disagree that the decision is questionable, but in this case I can’t see why the defendant would need to dispute emotional distress in order to make it relevant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lori-drew-indicted-on-federal-charges-in-megan-meier-cyberbullying-suicide/449482.md?page=6)