# Lose your house, lose your vote: Pubs using foreclosure list to block voters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 12, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296 "2008-09-12T16:24:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/41 "2008-09-12T20:42:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is all pretty academic now since they say they aren’t doing it, but that appears to have been the debate here- whether they were going to challenge the votes of people _about_ to lose their homes . . . I don’t this claim is in evidence. There were several questions about this particular point earlier. No has produced anything showing that to be the case. The article linked stated they were “planning to use a list of **foreclosed** homes . . .” Past tense, meaning the foreclosure process is complete. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/42 "2008-09-12T20:43:00Z")
> [@muttrox](#): > > Voter supression? Goes back a llllooooonnngg way before 2000. No doubt, but its use as a quasi-official, nationally coordinated tactic of the Republican Party is strictly post-Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/43 "2008-09-12T20:44:33Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I don’t this claim is in evidence. There were several questions about this particular point earlier. No has produced anything showing that to be the case. The article linked stated they were “planning to use a list of **foreclosed** homes . . .” Past tense, meaning the foreclosure process is complete. The **legal** foreclosure process. Doesn’t mean the sheriff has yet come by to put them out; and until they do get put out or leave, that house remains the residents’ legal residence. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/44 "2008-09-12T21:28:01Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I don’t this claim is in evidence. There were several questions about this particular point earlier. No has produced anything showing that to be the case. The article linked stated they were “planning to use a list of **foreclosed** homes . . .” Past tense, meaning the foreclosure process is complete. Right, and if we’re just talking about foreclosed homes, then there’s no story. The legal challenge to this plan makes it sound as though we’re not, though. > [@](#): > > The legal foreclosure process. Doesn’t mean the sheriff has yet come by to put them out; and until they do get put out or leave, that house remains the residents’ legal residence. It remains the resident’s residence. It doesn’t remain their legal residence just because the lienholder hasn’t presented a writ of possession to the sheriff yet. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/45 "2008-09-12T21:34:16Z")
> [@C3](#): > > There needs to be volunteers, like at Planned Parenthood, who walk people into their polling stations and help them know what their rights are if they’re questioned. There will be, I’m sure. Problem is, in many cases their only right will be to demand a provisional ballot, regarding which, see post #13. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/46 "2008-09-12T21:43:54Z")
The only source for this is the _Michigan Messenger_, and the head of the Republican Party in Macomb County denies he said it or plans to do it: > **[Detroit Local News - Michigan News - Breaking News - detroitnews.com](https://www.detroitnews.com/)** > > Get the latest local Detroit and Michigan breaking news and analysis , sports and scores, photos, video and more from The Detroit News. I don’t know who’s telling the truth, obviously, but I think if he did say it and now denies it, they’re not planning to do it anymore. Besides, Macomb County actually went for Bush in 2004, so it might not have been great strategy. Although I guess people in foreclosed homes probably tend to vote Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/47 "2008-09-12T22:11:27Z")
Frankly, I doubt that this manuever is really targeted at the recently homelessed. Its a ploy to gain some legal standing for tactics they would dearly love to implement, but have been stymied, for the most part. Remember, a lot of the attorney firing fiasco was inspired by this “movement” (I mean “movement” in the rectal context…) They are looking for a means to legitimize recruilting “poll watchers”. to give them some legal standng. Then they can perhaps legitimize other such shenanigans by referening the legality of this one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/48 "2008-09-12T22:30:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Remember, a lot of the attorney firing fiasco was inspired by this “movement” (I mean “movement” in the rectal context…) Ayuh. See [these](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=420050) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=420582) about the Pubs’ flatly illegal (but not necessarily criminal, that’s a gray area) use of “caging lists” in the 2004 election, and U.S. Attorney Tim Griffin’s role in it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/49 "2008-09-12T23:08:14Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I don’t know who’s telling the truth, obviously, but I think if he did say it and now denies it, they’re not planning to do it anymore. Well, we won’t really know until e-day. They can get caught at it and called out on it and deny it and they can still **do** it and get away with it. That’s what they did in 2004 with the “caging lists”; see above post. ---
**Author:** ![Z.R.Test](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a5b964/32.png) [@Z.R.Test](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Z.R.Test)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/50 "2008-09-13T04:51:08Z")
I have a PO Box as my address. At one point in the house I now live in, I paid no utilities. Does this mean I’m ineligible to vote? Can we have Challengers that challenge the Challengers? If the Pubs have people going out and doing this, can we have Dems watching over the proceedings as well? It’s scare tactics, plain and simple. Why is it in other countries, such as South Africa, we demand that voters be allowed to vote without harassment, and sanction the use of UN observers. And yet here, we let this kind of stuff go through. Makes ya wonder. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/51 "2008-09-13T06:54:30Z")
Call somebody and check. But I wouldn’t sweat it much, this is, in my estimation, only another attempt to establish the “legitimacy” of “voter fraud” as a threat to the public order, one that needs to be firmly suppressed. See, as hard as they’ve tried, they’ve yet to establish that voter fraud even exists in any meaningful way. And if they can’t show something is wrong, they don’t get any opportunity to “correct” it. I suspect, but cannot prove, that the intent is not so much to stop certain voters directly, one on one, but to slow down the proceedings, make them too difficult and time consuming. Since polling opportunities, like schools, tend to rely on the local tax base, the polling in your poorer neighborhoods tends to be more tiresome, more time consuming, more inconvenient, and with less equipment. So the object of the exercise is to discourage voters in a more or less general way in areas where the political leanings are likely to be predictably unfavorable. Which, of course, stinks. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/52 "2008-09-13T15:41:50Z")
I haven’t seen much outrage about it, but the Attorney General of Wisconsin, J.B. Van Hollen, (coincidentally co-chair of McCain’s Wisconsin Campaign) Has filed a suit with Wisconsin’s Election board that could possibly cause 10s of thousands of people to have to re-register at the polls. It will most affect those more transient neighborhoods… Guess where those are. [http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h9pxGlK3YYte2ZHnD5o8YW2RvVRQD93534MO0](http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h9pxGlK3YYte2ZHnD5o8YW2RvVRQD93534MO0) ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/53 "2008-09-13T17:41:49Z")
> [@Z.R.Test](#): > > Why is it in other countries, such as South Africa, we demand that voters be allowed to vote without harassment, and sanction the use of UN observers. And yet here, we let this kind of stuff go through. Makes ya wonder. What stuff are we letting go through? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/54 "2008-09-13T19:49:25Z")
> [@Z.R.Test](#): > > Can we have Challengers that challenge the Challengers? If the Pubs have people going out and doing this, can we have Dems watching over the proceedings as well? Sure. But what can the Dem challengers one-the-scene demand, but that a challenged voter be given a provisional ballot? Discussed above. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/55 "2008-09-13T22:10:31Z")
> **[Voter caging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caging_list)** > > Voter caging involves challenging the registration status of voters and calling into question the legality of allowing them to vote. Usually it involves sending mail directly to registered voters and compiling a list from mail returned undelivered. Undeliverable mail is seen as proof that the person no longer resides at the address on their voter registration. The resultant list is then used by election officials to purge names from the voter registration rolls or to challenge voters' eligibility... Sending letters to voters they think unlikely to respond that are likely Dem voters, is caging. The forclosures are a new opportunity. It was kids in college and soldiers abroad before. If they protest your vote ,you often get a provisional ballot ,which may or may not get counted. They sometimes disappear. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/56 "2008-09-19T21:29:58Z")
Update: [The DNC and the Obama campaign have filed a federal lawsuit to block the use of foreclosure lists.](http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/18/lost_homes_lost_votes_are_republicans) However, problems remain: > [@](#): > > JEFFERSON MORLEY: Well, if you are challenged, if you are challenged, you have the right to submit a—in Michigan, it was originally called an affidavit ballot. Under the Help America Vote Act, it’s now called a provisional ballot, in which your vote is challenged—you get to vote anyway—and then, once it’s decided whether you were eligible or not, then your vote, you know, will be counted. So, there are procedures in place for making sure that people are able to vote, even if they are challenged. > > But, you know, when we started doing this, reporting this story for Michigan Messenger, the first story that we did was about a directive that the Secretary of State issued last December, which enabled vote challengers to challenge people’s voter IDs, their photo IDs that they will have to present. This was a new area of allowable challenge. And when various groups began to press the Secretary of State for explanation of how this procedure would work, the Secretary of State really clammed up and wouldn’t respond to requests for information, for background information. And so, we saw a level of a lack of transparency there. And that’s what really motivated us to really try and understand what is going on with these Election Day procedures, because, as we saw in Ohio in 2004, the ability to create long lines will discourage voters, and it will discourage turnout. If you go and see a five-hour-long line, a lot of people are just going to give up. So it’s going to—in a very close election, what happens at the polling place is actually going to be very important. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/57 "2008-09-19T22:43:28Z")
Rep John Conyers, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee just published a [DKos blog](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/19/131758/301/258/603834)to publicize a letter he’s sent to John McCain regarding the foreclosure lists: > [@Rep John Conyers](#): > > September 18, 2008 > > The Honorable John McCain > P.O. Box 16118 > Arlington, VA 22215 > > Dear Senator McCain: > > As Chairman of the U.S. House of Representatives Judiciary Committee (HJC), I am extremely concerned by recent media reports that the Chairman of the Republican Party in Macomb County, James Carabelli, is planning to use a list of foreclosed homes as a basis to challenge voters and block them from participating in the November 2008 election. I am writing to request that you denounce any efforts by the Republican Party, most notably in Michigan and Ohio, to engage in voter suppression, including challenges based on a voter’s home foreclosure status, and that you direct your supporters to refrain from engaging in such behavior. At a time when Americans are losing their homes at record numbers, it is difficult to imagine that anyone would attempt to capitalize on such misfortune for political gain. Furthermore, a rejection of this strategy would be consistent with your recent commitment to “a fair and transparent election.” > > The subprime mortgage crisis has affected a significant number of Americans, and as such, a significant number of voters could be disenfranchised with this Republican strategy to challenge voters based on home foreclosure status. More than 700,000, or one in every 171, of our nation’s households received at least one foreclosure-related notice from April to June of this year. It is estimated that 2.5 million homes will face foreclosure this year, an increase from 1.5 million in 2007. A Center for Responsible Lending report estimates that the highest default rates are expected to be in cities in California, Nevada, Michigan, New Jersey and Washington, D.C. > > A disproportionate number of those homeowners affected by the subprime mortgage crisis are minorities. The Center for Responsible Lending projects that 10 percent of African-American borrowers and 8 percent of Hispanic borrowers will be affected by foreclosure. In contrast, only 4 percent of white borrowers are expected to be affected. > The Macomb County party’s plan to challenge voters who have defaulted on their home loans would disproportionately affect African Americans who are overwhelmingly Democratic voters. The plan could be a violation of the Voting Rights Act. > > With the 2006 reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act, Democrats and Republicans alike agreed that discriminatory voter suppression tactics had not been completely eradicated and protections against such tactics were still necessary. Members of Congress, like you, voted in support of reauthorizing this Act because they recognized that fair and equal access to the ballot box has not yet been achieved for all Americans. Certainly there must be no denying the kind of negative impact that challenges based on home foreclosure status can have on historically disenfranchised voting populations who have traditionally been targeted by predatory practices. A person’s ability to exercise his or her right to vote should not be contingent upon financial circumstances. > > Notably, in 1981 a federal court condemned the Republican National Committee (RNC) for using vote caging tactics similar to the foreclosure list plan. Since the federal court’s decision in 1981 in New Jersey, the RNC has been under a federal consent decree to refrain from engaging in this practice. It is important to note that the Department, under President George H.W. Bush filed suit in 1990 to stop a vote caging effort by those associated with Senator Jesse Helms’s re-election campaign. > > As Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, I ask that you repudiate any efforts by the Republican Party and any of its state affiliates to engage in voter suppression and intimidation tactics, and that you direct your supporters across the country to refrain from engaging in such behavior. I would appreciate hearing from you directly on whatever actions you take in response to this request. > > Responses should be directed to the Judiciary Committee office, 2138 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 (tel: 202-225-3951; fax: 202-225-7680). Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this important matter. > > Sincerely, > > John Conyers, Jr. > Chairman Check out the comments–he stuck around to answer some questions regarding the contempt of Congress proceedings agains Rove, Miers and Bolton as well. Now if he’d just have a press conference to draw some attention to this, my Friday would be perfect! ---
**Author:** ![Paige\_Turner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Paige\_Turner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paige_Turner)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/58 "2008-09-19T22:46:19Z")
There is also the fact that by putting the word out that they will be challenging people’s right to cast a ballot, the local Republicans will scare off people who don’t want that hassle/embarrassment/scene when they arrive at the polling station. Suppressing voter turnout is even better than disallowing already cast votes for throwing an election in the “right” direction. Perhaps they never intended to actually challenge based on foreclosure lists (knowing it was a legal and PR non-starter) but by getting the story out there and then retracting it, it put the idea in already insecure voters heads that it might just be better not to show up. The First World version of having heavies with guns and clubs loitering near the polling station, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/59 "2008-09-19T22:52:09Z")
A gutsy move by Conyers. His next election, the Pubbies will scream themselves hoarse about his connection to radical America-hatin’ _Daily Kos_. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296/60 "2008-09-20T00:26:31Z")
They’ll scream even louder as they twist in the wind, hanging each from his own special lamppost… 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote-pubs-using-foreclosure-list-to-block-voters/463296.md?page=4)