Loser Should Pay in Lawsuits - PERIOD!

I probably shouldn’t wade in at this late date, but it seems to me that the question of whether or not a particular lawsuit is frivolous is best left up to the judge, who presumably knows the particulars of a given case. Furthermore, it seems reasonable to me that instead of reversing the charges, so to speak, it would make sense for a judge to slap a “contempt of court” charge on a particular lawyer for wasting his time. As a lawyer had repeated offences the judge could increase the fine. Full time ambulance chasers would soon find going to court cost-prohibitive, while an honest lawyer with a “grey” case would not be risking he farm when he went to court. Of course, this system wouln’t help the particular company that was getting sued, but it seems like it would decrease the over all number of frivolous lawsuits.

(As a side note, under WB’s system I wouldn’t be suprised if some lawyers teamed up “I’ll sue your client, you defend him, who ever wins we will split the profit!” Just cause you’re a lawyer dosen’t mean you can’t be an ammoral bastard.)

Originally posted by Esprix

You know I what I am starting to like and respect Gaudere too. Especially for the job he/she does keeping you in line. :d There is no need to bludgeon anyone this is just debating unless your Nazi or something. :wink:

Esprix,

You are just totally wrong here. While I have in fact been sued several times my friends that I meet( that are business owners) have been sued too. And guess what they have the same problems I did. Matter of fact in has gotten so bad in the area in which I live a organization of small businesses and individuals (who give a damn about what is going on) started a organization called CALA(citizens againts lawsuit abuse). Which advertises the harm of lawsuit abuse and big outrages jury awards is making a difference which is just pissing off the plaintiff attorneys to no end around here. So with my knowlege of lawsuits, my friends knowledge of lawsuit and this organizations knowledge of lawsuits I feel that I am more credible than you in this area of debate.

You are also not considering the the big picture. If lawsuits keep breaking the small business owners back, he/she is going to get fed up with it and sell or even worse close their business putting “more” people out of work. Or big companies are going to pull out of areas where lawsuit and big excess jury awards run rampant wouldn’t you? And what happens to people out of work that’s right exprix they usually become poor. And I know what a big advdcate you are of poor. You know what I am too. But I believe in putting poor people to work not for them sueing to get rich. That just makes one that is wealthy poor and the one that is poor wealthy. Exchanging wealth does nothing to help the economy.

Man, did I miss something. Then just what the heck are we debating about?

What the heck do you think lawsuits are buddy? LAWSUITS are war. And I have been knee deep in the trenches? And where do most “smart” generals get their information from the soldiers on the frontlines.

No way why should I concede when I am right. You concede. But when I have time I will look for some more facts since you seem so generally interested.

How exactly does one pull a diamond from that pile of bovine excrement?

Esprix

This may sound cool until you understand the ethical constraints on attorneys. Everything possible is done to avoid an attorney having a personal or business interest contrary to his client’s. Involving the attorney’s personal money in this way creates a clear conflict of interest - you can’t be a zealous advocate (an ethical requirement) for a client and be looking to protect your bottom line at the same time. Remember, representation doesn’t begin in the courtroom - it begins with an honest assessment of the client’s case and includes a recommendation whether to sue or not.

That said, attorneys are already subject to Rule 11 of the Rules of Civil Procedure, adopted by most if not all states:

Sanctions for violation of Rule 11 include payment of fines or payment of the other party’s attorney fees incurred due to the violation.

>> Wild Bill, Phil 15, Sailor, you keep thinking from simply the “I got sued” side.

Yes, so what is wrong with that? Someone who has done nothing wrong is made to suffer hardship and expense because of the calculated actions of another party. I can’t see how that can be right.

You think you have a case, you bring it to court, the court decides you were mistaken and did not have a case, why should I pay for your mistake?

If you feel the plaintiff should not pay in the ineterest of justice then let society at large pay, but why the party being sued who has done nothing wrong?

Bill. Again. You keep saying you and your friends have had problems with frivolous lawsuits. You gave exactly ONE example of something that some one sued you for and your attorney recommended that you settle. You don’t mention what the others were sued for or the results of those cases.

Point is: NO one think’s their case is frivolous. Folks who GET sued think the other guys’ case ** is **

You’re assuming that all the cases against you and your friends are frivolous. then, you want all of us to believe your assessment, just 'cause you say so, and from THAT extrapolate that there is a crisis and something needs to be done to fix it. And that of course, your suggestion would be the natural “fix”.

I’m assuming ANYONE can get sued at some point. The merits or demerits of any individual case are exactly that - m/d of ** individual ** cases. If I were getting sued frequently, I would reasses how I’m conducting my business. I’m also suggesting to you that when you hear your friends complain about the suits they’ve been involved in, that you’re only hearing ONE side. People tend to relate their stories in a way that reflects positively upon their side. If your friends’ cases went to court and they lost or their attorney recommended settling the case, then it’s just possible they were getting sued 'cause they were in the wrong.

Attorneys will give you the advice to settle in a number of instances: 1. If you are definately in the wrong. 2. If you ** may ** be in the right, but that the plantiff’s case also has some merit. 3. if even the cost of going to court to have the case thrown out would cost you more.

Your stated position of having done nothing wrong assumes that most cases falls under the 3rd case. If it was so very obvious, why did your lawyer recommend that you settle? maybe, just maybe, Bill, because when you made the decision to fire this guy, you didn’t insure you had the evidence that it WASN’T discrimination? so that it would be in that grey area.

And Sailor - you missed the point by a wide turn. Suppose ** YOU sailor ** think that you have a case, go to court and loose. remember, too that cases in civil court are tested on the “preponderance of the evidence” which means slightly tipped to one side. So, it may be that you ** were ** right, but the court still found for the other side. Now, in that scenario, not only are you injured by some one else, AND out the cost of your own attorney, NOW, because of the happenstance of the evidence, you also are out the other attorneys fees.

The reason I suggested, sailor, to try and see this from the other’s viewpoint, is to weigh out a decision, a wise person will attempt to see all sides before proclaiming “off with her head”.

(not an attorney but) ‘wrongful prosecution’?

I know you can sue cities for wrongful imprisonment/prosecution.
Is there any reason why you couldn’t sue for wrongful civil suits? You allegedly suffered legal costs i.e. damages for a slanderous action right?

The company I work for operates housing… talk about your lawsuits. More lawsuits come from low income people believing they can get rich because they read about the old lady with the hot coffee (which didn’t include the 3rd degree burns in that version) than market rent tenants. Just a personal experience, has nothing to do with the world in general and I am not assuming that all frivolous lawsuits come from poor people so please don’t flame on that point.

But while insurance companies will settle for 100k rather than go to court over a 6 million dollar suit, thus costing the company through increased insurance costs. Likewise, as when I received a letter from an attorney about this poor little child who had contracted lead poisoning in a building we own, that he had never lived in which had been completely lead abaited back in 1978… well a quick reply to that effect did send the attorney walking. If the attorney doesn’t think they have a reasonable shot at the money, they aren’t going to waist time on a percentage basis suit. BTW… most attorneys… at least in business or with the mid to upper class clients don’t do anything without a retainer. The t.v. guys are out there, but if they aren’t dealing with a solid case or a nervous insurance company, they won’t take the case.

AerynSun, wring, thank you for being sane voices of reason in this debacle of a debate.

Not that it’ll help… :rolleyes:

Esprix

Wring, I gotta know? When you say you are in a small business it is not small legal pratice is it? Be honest. You unlike esprix seem very knowledgable of lawsuits. I will answer your questions later I just can’t right now(can you believe I am trying to work a little). And wring I also want to thank you for not making are discussion get nasty.

No, Bill, I am NOT a lawyer. I’ve posted in essence, my resume frequently, but here it is again:

I am the daughter of a small business man (a jeweler, so I have a smattering of knowledge of fine gold, gems etc.)
I am a college grad from Michigan State University.
I am a single parent of a 16 year old son (who daily reminds me to be grateful he WASN’T twins)
From 1977 until 1991, I was either the first or second in charge of a half way house for women coming out of the prison system. I gained a lot of information etc. regarding alcoholism, illegal drug use, criminal law, why folks commit crime etc.
from 1992 to present, working for the same company, I have advanced to the point where I am the director (although we no longer run correction centers). Mostly what we do now is working with ex-cons helping them get jobs. So, my current position has given me windows into running a small business, writing proposals, writing resumes, Public speaking, doing presentations to community groups, classes and the like, employment issues, issues about non profits etc.

so,no, I’m not a lawyer, don’t play one on tv, have never sued anyone (even when an interviewer indicated he’d rather have a man in the position - he eventually was fired over a class action from ALL of his employees about his racist and sexist behavior). OK?

AerynSun said:

AerynSun, please note the highlighted above. First, I have personal observations of a goodly number of DI types and if their actions were compared to the ruling you cited, they would be considered anything but ethical. The zealous advocate part doesn’t hold water either because the goal of ANY suit is to win or at least hope for a favorable settlement for both the attorney and the client. Are you trying to tell me that an attorney doesn’t look closely at the bottom line before they take a case on contingency? As to the honest assessment, I submit that the honest assessment is clearly fixed on what award or settlement would be possible to return to the firm.

AerynSun, there are a lot of highly ethical lawyers practising today…and there are a lot that see $$$$ only and the client as a vehicle to connect the two with NO regard as to the relative ethics of the case. I agree that the rules you supplied are lofty ideals, but I wonder if they are really used by the court to any degree today. Given what I see strictly as a layperson, I don’t think so. Maybe it is just my locality, and the systems works better elsewhere…but I sincerely tend to doubt it.

Am I the only person who thought this was funny?

Part of the problem with the U.S. legal system, as I see it, is your adoption of ‘joint and several liability’. In case you’re not familiar with this, it means that even if you are found to be only 10% liable, you can be forced to pay for all damages if the other guilty parties are incapable of paying.

A fairly famous case I know of involved a person who was injured when his aircraft slammed into a truck on a runway as he was attempting to take off. Here’s what happened:

This person was taxiing out in a Piper Cub to take aerial movies. To do this, he had welded a camera mount over the front seat (he was flying from the back seat). This homebuilt installation was not approved by anyone.

This person owed money to the airport. The airport manager saw him taxiing out for takeoff, and drove his truck onto the runway to block him. What he didn’t realize was that the combination of flying a tailwheel airplane with a camera mounted in front of him meant the pilot had no forward visibility and could not see the truck until he rotated.

So, the pilot continued his takeoff run, and when he rotated and saw the truck he hit the brakes. The airplane skidded into the truck, and the pilot slammed his head against the camera mount, incurring brain damage.

The proximate causes of the accident were determined to be mostly the negligence of the airport owner in driving a truck onto the runway, and the negligence of the pilot in installing a dangerous camera rig that left him unable to see forward, and also posed a serious hazard in case of an accident.

Two minor players in this were Piper Aircraft Co., and the manufacturer of the tires. The lawyers who sued for the pilot basically used a shotgun approach, suing anyone who could even be remotely connected to the case. Piper was sued because the plaintiffs alleged that the tailwheel design contributed to poor takeoff visibility (no shit - they always have, always will. It’s not a design defect, it’s a design tradeoff that gains safety and performance in many other areas), and there was no shoulder belt installed in the aircraft (it wasn’t required when the aircraft was built, and it was not standard practice - the airplane was built in 1946).

As for the tire manufacturer, the plaintiff managed to dig up some obscure safety report claiming that the tread pattern had inadequate braking performance. There was no question that the collision would have occured regardless of what tires were used, but the plaintiff alleged that the poor tread pattern contributed to the extent of the injuries.

Anyway, in the final shakeout Piper was largely found innocent, as was the tire manufacturer. I think they were each considered to have contributed only a percentage or two, whereas the negligence of the pilot and airport owner were considered to have been about 98% responsible for the accident.

HOWEVER… The airport owner had no money, and the settlement was for several million dollars. Guess who paid? Piper and the tire company. Shortly thereafter, Piper stopped selling small aircraft. They eventually re-entered the market, but were out of business for several years.

Bear in mind that they had to pay huge money to someone for damages incurred in a product that had flown safely for 50 years, and had no known defects. They were basically sued for not demanding that pilots retrofit the aircraft with shouldder belts, even though the law does not require it.

Joint and Several Liability is nothing more than social welfare for accident victims, at the expense of people or comapanies with ‘deep pockets’. It also ensures that lawyers employ a shotgun approach in lawsuits, suing anyone they can because everyone found even partially at fault becomes an economic reserve.
In other parts of the world, if you are found to be 1% liable you only pay 1% of the damages. If the other parties can’t pay, too bad. This sounds eminently fair and reasonable, and I’d like to hear arguments for and against it.

I couldn’t agree more :smiley:

I’m with you too sam. I just can not wait to see what the opposing counsel has to say about this one. :smiley:

Well for one thing, it’s a different issue from that raised in the OP. The OP insists (in spite of all reasoning to the contrary) that defendants who are found not liable should not have to pay any trial-related costs. The point eloquently argued by Sam is that defendants who are found liable, as the companies were in this case, should not have to pay a disproportionate amount of the award. I don’t care which issue you discuss, but they’re not the same thing.

wring wrote:

[hijack]

How come it’s always “fine gold”? Is there such a thing as “coarse gold”?

[/hijack]

Kinstu quote:

The point in the OP as I read it is that the current system is FLAWED. In an effort to protect the rights of an individual to achieve justice, the scales of decency and common sense have not merely become tilted, but have been turned upside down.

I have been aware of similar situations as noted above. The company I worked (see earlier post) for made golf carts. The golfer shows up and gets the keys to the cart and a couple of 6 packs. The pro doesn’t even ask to see a driver’s license. After the tree magically jumps in front of the vehicle, the golfer’s attorney goes after the pro, the club, the cart manufacturer, the manufacturer of the batteries, the tires, the brakes, ad nauseum. The plaintiff’s attorney, if they are good, can usually count on finding a payday somewhere. The point is that someone (or a business) has to pay…throw money away if you will… simply because they happen to get lined up in the gunsite of a rifle that has been made extremely powerful due to a lack of tort reform. This is wrong. And to me very disturbing.

I am adamently in favor of individual rights…unless the exercise of those “rights” negatively impacts society as a whole. Would you sacrifice someone for the betterment of general society? Damn straight!!! In a heartbeat!!! Wonder what they said to the workers who lost their jobs when …

As for joint and several liability, what you’re leaving out is that most states also use comparative negligence, and the ones that don’t use contributory negligence.

Comparative negligence: if the plaintiff was 98% at fault and the defendant 2%, defendant pays 2% of the damages

Contributory negligence: if the plaintiff was 1% at fault and the defendant 99%, plaintiff gets nothing.

So I don’t know who was representing the airplane manufacturer, but if you’re account is accurate, it is a case of a good system making a mistake, not an inherently flawed system (in this respect) operating as usual.

Phil_15: *It is absolutely the same issue!!! *

Nope. The issues may share a common theme, namely, unfairness in the current legal system. But the issue of joint and several liability is not the same as the issue of who should pay court costs and lawyer’s fees. And neither of them is the same as the issue you just brought up now, namely, the frequency and severity of frivolous lawsuits.

I can see the general common ground here in the feelings of you and WB and Sam and a couple other posters: namely, you all feel that in too many cases, those who get sued get screwed. I think you have a perfect right to that opinion and am happy to see a discussion about it, but I think it will be a more productive discussion if we try to keep the different legal issues separate, rather than just lumping them all together in a vague sort of resentfulness.