# "Losers" morally superior to "winners" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608 "2006-02-08T22:46:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/21 "2006-02-09T12:05:51Z")
Davenport, wtf is up with that personal attack on the poster for raising an interesting question? This is especially odd: > [@](#): > > Really, is this thread anything more than another variation on how downtrodden you are as a rich frat boy? A thirty year old “man” should be over these fifth grade categories. First you comment on the categories, generally saying you agree, and then you say its childish to even mention categories like these? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/22 "2006-02-09T12:20:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Conflict is necessary for a story. Someone being poor, unattractive, or unathletic creates a potential for conflict right there. It’s also an American cultural trait to root for underdogs (I’ve heard Australians are similar). I think its quite universal. I remember noticing the same thing when reading the Odyssey. Most of the way through Odysseus is the underdog, so that’s fine. Near the end, however, the suiters become the underdogs. So the author(s) go out of his/their way to put the suiters in a bad light here. And still the gods have to give signs, and give them warnings, etc. Here in Denmark, our most famous author, Hans Christian Anderson, is basically all about rooting for the underdog. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/23 "2006-02-09T12:23:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Why does one person see…say, a popular athlete and say “I wish I could play ball like him” while another sees a stuck up asshole jock. Some people see a rich guy living in a big house and say “someday I’m going to live like that” while others say “someday, I’m going to get that SOB!!” Just for the record, I’m not talking about me here. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/24 "2006-02-09T12:36:54Z")
Could it be that most people are “losers” and therefore we’re more sympathetic to “loser” characters? Most of us aren’t beautiful. Most of us aren’t rich. Most of us don’t have mobs of friends. Most of us aren’t work-a-holics. Most of us do not shop at Lord & Taylor. I personally can’t identify with atheletic people. I’m not against them–in fact I admire the art of skillful body movement. But being hopelessly clumsy, I am more sympathetic to characters who are like me. I don’t see their clumsiness as a failing; rather, I see it as a trait that makes that person more “human”. One reason why I can’t identify with most atheletic people is that they don’t seem to _get_ clumsiness. It’s not precipitated by laziness or other moral failings, people. It’s just the way some people are. It could be that you’re right that the values or traits you listed are considered “winning” ones in society. So…it makes quite a lot of sense that film, TV, and book heros are not societal “winners”. Art has always been about bucking the rules of society. Who wants to eat pro-establishment propaganda? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/25 "2006-02-09T12:41:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But he makes my point for me. Why does one person see…say, a popular athlete and say “I wish I could play ball like him” while another sees a stuck up asshole jock. Some people see a rich guy living in a big house and say “someday I’m going to live like that” while others say “someday, I’m going to get that SOB!!” For the same reason someone looks at a “geek” and says, “He looks like a fine, intelligent chap!” and another says “Ew! What a dweeb!” Or for the same reason someone looks at a poor person and says, “I hope she’s got a roof over her head and some food to eat” and another says, “What a lazy-ass street whore! I wish she would just die!” You’re basically asking why some people are mean and others are not. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/26 "2006-02-09T13:09:02Z")
IMHO, most humans feel inferior in some way, for obvious reasons, however incorrect. Feeling inferior is psychologically very unpleasant. So people cope with it, in a number of ways. 1. **Solve the problem**. Become atletic or rich. The attitude or psychological “story” that goes with this is: \*“I got here through hard work and talent. Most people could make something moreout of themselves, if they put some work in it. if they don’t they’re a buncha slackers.” \* 2. **Stop caring**. The story that goes with this attitude is: \*" To each his own. Fine for them, but I don’t like it, or not enough to put in the effort. I’m just not the type for it. I like other things." \* 3. **Blaming yourself**. Becoming defeated: “It’s not for the likes of me” Depressed: " I’m a f\*ing loser, and always will be". 4. **Blaming others**. Anger, jealousy. “They all hold me down”. “Rich people are greedy materialists” “Extrovert people are superficial babblemouths.” 5. **Hoping**. “Someday…” Imho, a large part of culture caters to these needs. Stories supply fodder for any of these psychological positions. Stories in books, magazines, movies, or in the stories people tell each other. That doesn’t make the stories incorrect or correct perse. Truth has little to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/27 "2006-02-09T13:44:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But he makes my point for me. Why does one person see…say, a popular athlete and say “I wish I could play ball like him” while another sees a stuck up asshole jock. Some people see a rich guy living in a big house and say “someday I’m going to live like that” while others say “someday, I’m going to get that SOB!!” I see a popular athlete and recognize his or her prowess and wonder why we lionize someone for doing something of little or no value. I see someone who lives in a big house and wonder what they had to sacrifice to get it. And then I go on with my life. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/28 "2006-02-09T13:46:40Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The one exception that I’d agree to is the “evil industrialist” stereotype in films and TV. You know, the guy who seems to revel in the misfortunes of others, and laughs as he dumps industrial waste into babies’ bath water. It’s a cartoonish, almost Lex Luthor personality. How often is the president of a company or chariman of the board of some large conglomerate portrayed sympathetically? Aside from anyone’s opinion about the average nature of top executives, what would be the point, dramatically, of story centered upon a good CEO? Someone with that much power would immediately get what he wants, and if his goals are good, the story would be over as soon as it started. The last movie I’ve personally seen with a good CEO was _Robots_, and the drama came from the fact that he was ousted by a bad CEO. The goal of the hero was to reinstate him into power. If he was in power at the beginning of the movie, it would have either been over in thirty-minutes, when the hero got to the company gates, or the entire story would have been changed to that of long, Oz-like quest where the company isn’t even reached until the last act. That’s another type of story where the good CEO fits in (I can’t immediately think of any examples right now, in Wizard of Oz, he was a powerless fraud, but I know the storyline exists as a staple). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/29 "2006-02-09T14:07:48Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > I see a popular athlete and recognize his or her prowess and wonder why we lionize someone for doing something of little or no value. I see someone who lives in a big house and wonder what they had to sacrifice to get it. And then I go on with my life. I think it’s that more people can relate to an athlete than they can relate to a CEO. Most kids (or at least a lot of them) at one time dream of being an athlete. Most people have played some kind of sport at some time. While a CEO or other top executive also had to work hard and sacrifice to get where he is, for the most part I think we still associate them with “that cheap prick who signs my paychecks”. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/30 "2006-02-09T16:12:45Z")
> [@mr. jp](#): > > Davenport, wtf is up with that personal attack on the poster for raising an interesting question? Because he’s raised it time and again. [Discuss my Grand Unifying Theory on Coolness and Dorkism](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=337581) [Are there more “nerds,” “dorks,” and “weirdos” these days?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=306403) He’s used this whole “nerd/cool” schism in those threads, as well as in his contributions in other threads that I’m too lazy to dig through right now. And basically, I think it’s a tad immature. I’ve never heard anyone past their freshman year in college use “nerd” and “dork” as an insult, especially not a “successful businessman” like **msmith**. And actually, I said I DON’T agree with the categories. I believe in other categories: good people and bad people. And while I admit to having some anti-rich prejudice (based on life experience), generally I think it is best to judge people as individuals. **msmith** appears to judge them based on how “cool” they are, and I think that’s a little sad, especially since he’s in his thirties, way past the age where this type of judgement is understandable and forgivable. > [@msmith](#): > > Davenport seems like a prick. His entire post is rife with bitterness. Yeah, I was in a fraternity like ten years ago in college. Sure, I buy my clothes from mid-range designer stores like Banana Republic. And while I’m not “rich”, I make a decent living because I work damn hard at a job I hate. What part of my post was bitter? I’m honestly not seeing it. And a lot of those people you put down as being “losers” work just as hard as you do. Why should YOU be able to put THEM down, just because they might be unattractive, or not as suave, or whatever? And then you expect people not to put you down in retaliation? You’re just reinforcing the rich businessman/fratboy=jerk association in my mind. Not helping the cause, dude. And I think you should know my gender by now. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/31 "2006-02-09T17:35:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: How often is he sympathetic IRL? There are at least ten shitbag Richard Mellon Scaifes for every heroic George Soros. How can you call a man heroic who purposely collapsed the British currency so he could profit a billion dollars (in one day, btw) on his currency speculation? Looks as if you define “heroic” and “shitbag” by whether their political inclinations match yours, irrespective of their actual doings. Pretty lame definition, but one that’s all-too-common. ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/32 "2006-02-09T18:14:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > …Why does one person see…say, a popular athlete and say “I wish I could play ball like him” while another sees a stuck up asshole jock. Some people see a rich guy living in a big house and say “someday I’m going to live like that” while others say “someday, I’m going to get that SOB!!” Well, I think this is over-simplified, surely. Let’s take John Stockton as an example. Popular athelete who could really play basketball. Hard-working & even a little bit of an underdog at one point. But I hated him. Made my skin crawl. Why? Because he played like a dirty little prick. All elbows and cheap shots. So, while I could admire his basketball prowess, he was still an asshole. Which brings me to another point. Many folks at the top of their field have indeed sacrificed some bottom-line human qualities. The highly successful often get that way because success is their top priority. Family, love, morality, decency—these _sometimes_ fall by the wayside. Not always, but they do. And this is surely a large contributing factor to the bias you’re suggesting. These people become so focused that they’re almost incapable of other interactions. I know I’ve had that buddy who sort of faded away into his job, working 70 hour weeks and getting constant promotions, yet, when you go out for drinks, all he can talk about is office politics & shit he’s going to buy. It consumed his life &, IMHO, made him a worse person. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/33 "2006-02-09T19:01:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > \*\*Davenport \*\* seems like a prick. And you seem like someone who has forgotten where you are posting. Do not insult other posters in **GD**. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/34 "2006-02-09T19:06:18Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > How can you call a man heroic who purposely collapsed the British currency so he could profit a billion dollars (in one day, btw) on his currency speculation? If you’re talking about this – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George\_soros#Currency\_speculation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_soros#Currency_speculation) – Soros did absolutely nothing dishonest or unethical, **by the standards of the business community.** And it’s those standards I’m applying when I call him a “hero.” Certainly he’s not a hero the way a soldier or a firefighter can be a hero. He doesn’t put his own life on the line, nor is he expected to; and whatever he does with the rest of his life, he’ll die a billionaire. But at least he’s trying to use his money and influence to do some good in the world. Some **real** good, beyond founding an opera or a hospital and getting a tax break and his picture in the paper. In that regard, he outshines practically all of his peers. > [@JohnT](#): > > Looks as if you define “heroic” and “shitbag” by whether their political inclinations match yours, irrespective of their actual doings. Not “irrespective of their actual doings.” And taking doings into account, it’s a perfectly valid standard. See post #18. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/35 "2006-02-09T19:09:08Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > And I think you should know my gender by now. Why? Who the fuck are you that I should know who you are? On furthur investigation, it would appear that you represent yourself as a woman. > [@davenportavenger](#): > > He’s used this whole “nerd/cool” schism in those threads, as well as in his contributions in other threads… So what? Why do you care? How is it any different from Evil Captor’s thread on “lookism” in certain industries. You are living in a freakin fantasy world if you think that high school-esq superficial stereotypes and prejudices don’t carry over into the adult world. I’m just raising the topic for discussion and didn’t make any personal judgements against any specific individual. If the topic is too painfull for you because the cool kids picked on you in jr high or some bullshit, don’t vent your anger at me. > [@davenportavenger](#): > > You’re just reinforcing the rich businessman/fratboy=jerk association in my mind. Not helping the cause, dude. That’s your problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/36 "2006-02-09T19:10:43Z")
And, on re-reading the thread more closely: While not crossing any explicit lines, this is rather more rude than necessary and you should work _very_ hard to avoid a repetition: > [@davenportavenger](#): > > Really, is this thread anything more than another variation on how downtrodden you are as a rich frat boy? A thirty year old “man” should be over these fifth grade categories. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/37 "2006-02-09T19:16:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And, on re-reading the thread more closely: While not crossing any explicit lines, this is rather more rude than necessary and you should work _very_ hard to avoid a repetition. Sorry, but I stand by my borderline statement. Adult men should cast off the baggage of high school and treat people as equals. I don’t feel that the OP acts like my definition of an adult, so I made a statement highlighting that. > [@msmith](#): > > So what? Why do you care? How is it any different from Evil Captor’s thread on “lookism” in certain industries. You are living in a freakin fantasy world if you think that high school-esq superficial stereotypes and prejudices don’t carry over into the adult world. I’m just raising the topic for discussion and didn’t make any personal judgements against any specific individual. If the topic is too painfull for you because the cool kids picked on you in jr high or some bullshit, don’t vent your anger at me. Gettin’ a little hysterical there, huh **smithy**? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/38 "2006-02-09T19:19:17Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > Sorry, but I stand by my borderline statement. Adult men should cast off the baggage of high school and treat people as equals. I don’t feel that the OP acts like my definition of an adult, so I made a statement highlighting that. > > Gettin’ a little hysterical there, huh **smithy**? Then you need to take it to the **Pit**. This is not that Forum. You will not continue this attack on another poster’s person, here. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/39 "2006-02-09T19:26:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Actually, I was taking my cue from **Evil Captor’s** thread on [lookism](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=357531). Not to single him out, but I sense a lot of resentment towards good looking or successful people. You sense wrongly, as our exchange in that thread demonstrates: > [@msmith537](#): > > Why do you assume good looking people are automatically dumber and more incompetant? > There’s a bit of “lookism” in consulting as well. It’s a client facing business and while I wouldn’t describe myself or my coworkers as top-model caliber, most people here tend to be young, outgoing, and put together. > [@evil captor](#): > > I do not assume that good looking people are automatically dumber and more incompetent. I assume that good looking people are about as dumb and incompetent as anyone else. What I also assume that when your selection bias is for looks, you are likely to hire a dumber and more incompetent crew than one that is selected entirely on the basis of competence/intelligence. Where is this resentment you speak of, white man? ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608/40 "2006-02-09T19:27:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You will not continue this attack on another poster’s person, here. Again, I don’t see it as an attack. He IS rich, he IS a former fraternity member. Those things are facts. I guess you’re talking about the quotation marks, which are meant as a sarcastic statement on **msmith** ’s lack of adult manliness, so I guess I’ll retract those, if not the sentiment that goes with them. Which is more than **msmith** will do, I bet, after opening a thread that calls all poor people losers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losers-morally-superior-to-winners/343608.md?page=3)