Yep.
The *salvation/heaven and hell/other religion thing * really throws me for a loop.
I dealt with it by accepting that there are many things I will never grasp. I never try to figure out who, if anyone is going to hell. I figure that is God’s sole province and I just leave it alone.
Call it Freedom’s Ostrich Theory of Salvation if you will:)
Just wanted to add that I realize your situation is a bit different since you still believe in most of it – I just thought the emotions involved may be similar. I grew up in the Catholic church (went to Catholic school, sat with my mom as she played organ, etc.) and still get really sad when I realize that I don’t really belong to that “family” anymore. Sometimes, I feel angry at the establishment for its unbelievable beliefs; more often, I feel angry at myself for somehow missing what everyone else seems to get. However, as much as I miss the comfort/community of the church, I can’t handle pretending to be something I’m not.
You cannot will yourself into belief. There is no point in being angry–particularly at yourself–because the things you are presented for belief do not make sense to you. God (if there is a God) is not going to judge anyone by how well they made the right noises.
Sadness I could see, if you find yourself “missing” any part of the community of church because you would find it hypocritical to go through the motions when you did not believe. But please don’t be angry at yourself simply because you are honest with yourself.
Guin, dear…
First, listen to Tom~. I’ve never known him to post something that was not both (a) true to his Catholicism and (b) compassionately understanding of where someone was coming from.
Second, if you feel you cannot stand by what your parish church is promulgating, or the Church as a whole is, then do one of the following:
(1) Find a different parish. The days when if you lived north of Main Street, you were a member of St. Swithin’s-in-the-Swamps, willy-nilly, if you were a Catholic, are long since over.
(2) Try another church. From what I know of your personal piety from online, I’d suggest my own Episcopal Church or the Lutherans. The other Protestant churches that DDG mentioned are fine people, and devoted Christians, but will not “fit” what I think are your tastes in worship. Remember that about 85% of what I’ve posted about religion is orthodox for Episcopal churches – so if you like what I’ve had to say, you’ll probably feel comfortable there. (As with every other human-led institution, including the one that John Paul II leads, there are gonna be people who will spoil it for you – if you end up in a Republican-party-at-prayer Episcopal church, consider it the same thing as a Vatican-II-was-a-mistake Catholic and try again somewhere else. (I sincerely hope you do not take this as a case of sell-you-my-church – it’s a feeling that where I’ve been will make you a good home, and nothing more – if I thought the Assemblers of God would be better for you, I’d encourage you to go there with a glad heart.)
(3) To thine own self be true… and trust in God to lead you where He wants you – which includes where you’ll be happy.
And keep me posted, by e-mail, how things are going for you spiritually. I care, and would very much like to help however I can.
I’d second Poly’s sugegstions. From what you have posted about your faith experiences in churches…it seems that you favor a more “liturgical” approach in your services. If Catholicism does not mesh with you…you could certainly “settle” 
for the Episcopal or Lutherans…although one caveat i would add…you would probably want to stay clear of the Missouri or Wisconsin synods of the Lutheran churches.
{{Guin}} I have nothing to add, just my support. Let me know if you think I can help in anyway, even though we don’t really know each other. (Bill’s thread doesn’t really count for that much…)
Guin, boy do I feel where you are coming from.
I have really been re-reading the Bible with a new set of eyes lately, mostly to see what it says sans the denominational interpretations that I grew up believing. It’s been, shall we say, eye-opening. One thing I’ve been learning is that you don’t have to accept the whole thing as God’s literal truth. (Ooh boy, I’m glad certain family members aren’t reading this!) Read with a critical eye, ask God for His guiding on passages that are confusing or unclear to you. Heaven knows, He wants you know Him better!
Don’t fear thinking. God is big enough to handle your questions; ask Him! I know I have been asking a lot of questions in prayer lately.
I must say, as I’ve said before, this Board has been key in helping me to break out of the fundamental mind-lock that I was raised in. For that, I am eternally grateful.
I agree with many of the posters here who have encouraged you to experience different denominations. I, personally, just consider RCC as a different denomination, not a different religion, but I know that thinking isn’t the same in many Protestant churches. Maybe getting a glimpse of God from a different perspective will help you work out some of the issues you have with the RCC. Please email me if you want to - I’d love to talk more, if you’d like! I’ll be praying for you! (((((Guin)))))
Apart from “us” versus “those amoral atheists,” creationism (circa 6Kyears ago), and hating homosexuals, I don’t think you’ll run into any problems. Of course, out of those three things you’ve already submitted for our disapproval the first point.
Good, becuase telling people they have no morals is probably the last way to do it.
Guinastasia
I’m sorry I can’t help you out, but I know shit about Catholics apart from the three Catholic weddings I’ve attended. I can tell you, however, that once when I was in 7th grade I called the local Catholic church to speak to the priest, or father, or whatever its called (sorry) to ask them something along these lines:
“Did the people who lived before writing, and hence before the bible and Jesus, go to hell because they didn’t know Jesus?”
The answer was somewhat long-winded (but not as pedantic as I had hoped) but essentially reduced to, “No. They were judged on their actions.” Or whatever.
Anyway, not to kick you while you are down but(here comes an off-topic comment) Catholic services always creeped me out. Made me feel like I was in a cult. They are pretty churches, however.
Good luck.
I’m not a scholar by any means when it comes to studies of faith. I probably don’t know much more then the average guy.
But I like to think about it this way: The way I see things–Jesus didn’t believe in the church, either. He believed in the -faith-, just not the -doctrine-. His rebellious nature is what made him infamous with the established principles, and led to his execution.
I had this in mind while reading Herman Hesse’s short book, Siddhartha, named after Siddhartha Goutama, the founder of Buddhism. In the book, he also rebels from the established church to live by his own ‘doctrine’.
I’ve been living the same way. I believe in Jesus. I believe in Faith. I believe in God, or Allah, or Yahweh, or the Great Architect, or the Master Builder, or whatever you wanna call the big dudemeister.
But I also believe in the sanctity and power of the Earth. (It is a creation of God), and of the spirits and animals and elements therein. After all, are we not all born of the materials of the Earth? The iron in your blood, the phosphorous in your bones. And we will all return to it.
But I digress from the main point.
I went through a religious crisis too, ya know. I was “raised” catholic even though my parents weren’t very devout in doing so. Since then, I’ve always felt content that there is no established “doctrine” that can teach somebody how to be closer to whatever faith you believe in. Because doctrines and bibles and rules are the words of mankind, and man is fallible. Therefore, the -least- fallible way, in a person’s own perception, to pursue faith, is by a doctrine of your own design.
Think about it for awhile, and maybe it’ll appeal to you. I wish you the best.
-Ashley
I recently found a quote that answered this question very much to my satisfaction:
“Fundamentalists long for the return of a more moral America, an America that may never have been. All around them they see what they perceive as declining morality and spirituality. They reason that if humans share ancestry with the other animals, we have no reason to behave as anything other than animals. This view neglects the fact that humans are the only known animals with the ability to contemplate the consequences of their own actions. It also fails to recognize that there is a great deal of good in the world, the nightly news notwithstanding. Crime existed long before the theory of evolution, even before the writing of the Bible, and biologists do not like crime any more than the creationists do. Evolutionary theory is not a license to run amok, and neither is a belief in the literal interpretation of the Bible a guarantor of moral behavior.” --Tim Berra, “Evolution and the Myth of Creationism”
Just going back to the OP for a moment, I have to ask about the use of the phrase “Losing my faith”?
Are you losing your faith, Guin? Or is it that you have faith, but are having difficulty reconciling that faith with what you perceive to be the doctrine of the Catholic Church? These are not the same thing at all…
Well, I don’t want to tell you what to do, and being Episcopalian, I don’t want to be seen to be defending the Catholic church from outside; that can be left to Catholics. Nevertheless:
This, I’m afraid, is not Catholic doctrine. It is, in fact, a recognized Catholic heresy. A Catholic priest was excommunicated for preaching this. So if you must lose your faith, I hope you will lose it over something that the Roman Catholic church actually believes and professes! I mean, give the guys a break; there is enough material there to disagree with!
Pardon my being overly familar here, and perhaps presuming too much. It is hard to know when I am getting too personal on an open board on the Internet. But what matters in any of this is not doctrine, or what denomination you belong to. It is your relationship to the Lord of the Universe. It is how much you love Him, and how much He loves you.
I presume again, and please forgive me, but if I read this correctly, part of what you feel is the comfort and the pain of separating from a part of what you have grown up with — like giving up an old, familiar teddy bear. But part of the tears is the longing inside you to know just how much you are truly loved by someone that knows you just as you are, and the need to love that Someone as you are loved. Oh, damn — this is sounding like one of those tracts — but I can’t help it. Why are you crying? Losing faith? Looking for love? What is lost?
Do you really think that He who knows when a sparrow falls does not know just how you feel, and knows your hurt (and what is causing it) better than you do yourself? What matters a label to Him?
This is coming out all wrong. I am not trying to get you to abandon the Catholic church, nor to keep to it. I am saying to stick to the fundamentals. Don’t worry about asking me, or anyone else on the boards. Ask Him. Pray about it a bit. Or more than a bit. I suspect you will wind up staying Catholic, and closer to the heart of Catholicism than before. But if not, it will be for the right reasons, and not because of a mistaken notion of a doctrine the church does not even profess. Follow Him, and don’t worry about badly phrased quotations of obscure doctrines. Follow Him. Then, if the doctrines get in the way, toss them aside. If you find the doctrines false, find a church that is closer to the Truth that you see. Follow Him. Stick to the Center. Concentrate on the Truth.
Again, forgive my presumption. This really does read badly. Feel free to ignore it if you feel I am intruding.
Never heard of the Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, but IIRC the Missouri Synod is the one that won’t allow you to take Communion if you’re not a member of a Missouri Synod Lutheran church. I visited one with my parents once, and it was Communion Sunday, and they asked us, “What church do you belong to at home?” and Daddy said, “Trinity Lutheran”, and they said, “What synod is that?” and Daddy said, “It’s the American Lutheran Church”, and they said, “Whoops, sorry, you can’t take Communion then.” So we had to sit there like dorks while everyone else Communed.
So skip the Lutherans, I guess–they’ve got the Devil in their details.
I guess that’s it: it’s not htat I’m losing my faith, but just in reconciling MY beliefs with that of an organized religion.
I really don’t know how to thank all of you. YOu’ve been very helpful.
I guess it’s just that lately, I’ve been thinking alot about this. I mean, I don’t exactly GO to Church, but I’ve always believed in God and such.
There are probably many churches (denominations, anyway) that restrict eucharist to members (the RCC being an example)
The Wisconsin & Missouri Synods were the only (I think) synods of the Lutheran church that did not join the ELCA…they tend to be quite conservative…probably not a match for a liberal/moderate Christian.
I don’t know that one would have to rule out all Lutherans though.
BTW, most of what I know about Lutherans comes from the best man in my wedding…a former Lutheran, current Catholic…so don’t know how current my undestanding is…
Well it’s the “BBQ Pit”, so here goes…
Excuse me asswipe, but when did I ever say atheist were either amoral, immoral, lacking ethics or in any way worse then anyone else? If you were to read what I actually said you would see that my statement implied that atheist practice morallity (and IMO so do homosexuals which FTR I have no personal qualm, dislike or any other disadain for). I simply asked “Why?”. The reasons supplied by Gr8Kat don’t satisfy my curiosity either, but the point is moot to me anyway. For now it is simply rhetorical, but if it makes someone wonder why they have morals yet don’t believe in God (whatever god that may be) then so be it. If it makes someone say “Fuck it. Who cares about the reason?” then so be that also.) My personal thoughts are not that man has “evolved” but that it was a learned notion passed down by your parnets from their parents and so on and etc. Deny it all you want, but those morals passed down, at some point, had their basis in some sort of religion. I mean a monkey didn’t turn into a man one day and all of the sudden he said “Hey, it’s bad for me to kill other monkeys that have evolved into men”. Either it was a concept that came about as a result of religion (whether or not it was somneone trying to gain control of other people by claiming to have heard from god, or whether the person actually heard from god is irrelevant to this point). And if you have to try and search for an answer to the question I submitted then I think something is wrong with that. If I am simply a product of evolution and there is no God, then I don’t see why it is wrong for me to blow your head off (or you mine for that matter). But that shit ain’t right. Perhaps men made up god and rules up against murder simply because that was happening too much. I’ll let you know when I die.
Anyway, FTR, aynrandlover, you “approval” or “disapproval” means shit to me. So save it for someone that cares because I don’t. And I thought atheist were supposed to be so open minded…
tsk, tsk, tsk