# Losing the Moral Highground- What goes around comes around **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072 "2003-03-21T12:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/21 "2003-03-22T16:26:56Z")
Well, **Monty** , the problem with the “unlawful combatant” term is that it is not recognized by anyone but the US. The term with the meaning you refer to was just made up by the US as a workaround of the Geneva Convention. The problem is that Iraq could (and have from what i read above) deemed US/UK POWs “unlawful combatants” since the war was never sanctioned by the Security Counsel. And as i understand it they can do so with more legitimacy than the US, since, at least _they_ have a prejudicate to refer to! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/22 "2003-03-22T17:26:25Z")
IIRC, Randy, the term’s in the GC, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/23 "2003-03-24T02:41:23Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Dogface_ > According to Snopes: “The detainees have since been moved to nearby Camp Delta, a permanent detention center erected for this purpose. The 8x6.66 cells have beds and walls and windows, flush toilets and running water, but can still be described as austere.” Snopes hardly counts as a great source for matters like this. It’s a website run by two people whose primary goal is to debunk urban legends and internet glurge, not to comment on the conditions of P.O.W.s held by the US government. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Tuckerfan_ > IIRC, the US was planning to, if it hadn’t already, release some of the folks held at Gitmo since they turned out to be minor players or something. If the Iraqi’s capture some buck private who was merely a cook for his unit, do you think that they’d be willing to let him go? And Gitmo’s in freakin’ Cuba!!! It’s a tropical island, and the climate’s said to be wonderful by most accounts! Given the choice of being held prisoner in someplace like Afghanistan (where it gets really cold) and Iraq (where it gets really hot) or Cuba, I’ll take Cuba! Oh, I see. It’s OK to do whatever we like the P.O.W.s as long as it’s better than what Iraq would do? America has obligations to captured soldiers that are entirely independent of Iraq. Asking “What Would Iraq do” (WWID - get brcelets!) is the wrong question. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/24 "2003-03-24T03:11:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Let us extend your argument to its logical conclusion. The USA should never use any means, WHATSOEVER to defend ourselves, because that might mean that somebody, somewhere, might get mad at us for it. > > \*\* I haven’t finished reading this thread, but I felt this really needed a response, since it’s a typical twisting of an argument to fit ones agenda. As far as I understand, the issue people have with prisoners at G-Bay is that we must adhere to the same standards we expect from others. That’s a big (and valid argument IMO). It’s similar to the opposition to the admin’s argument that we must stop Hussein from ignoring the UN, and we’re willing to ignore the UN to make that point. We must lead by example, or our stance will appear (and, IMO, is) unjustified. That said, some other responses to what I’ve seen here include: a) The US assertion that government change is a valid reason for war is also against Geneva Convention rules. b) Are we sure these soldiers were executed or were Iraqi soldiers fighting back against an occupying force? Also, do we know that the injuries these soldiers sustained were the result of torture, and not from the “heat of battle?” We do not know yet. c) I support our troops and hope for their safety, but the reality is that the US government has put them in harms way, not the Iraqi’s. I hope no more of them die for this misguided action. Whatever the atrocities Hussein may perpetrate against his people, no Iraqi army was prepared to invade the US or any of its satellite installations, at least as far as we know now. d) \ We don’t yet have the imformation to jump to conclusions. Why not wait as see what develops? Then, if your argument is justified, it will be evident to most. I’m open to the possiblilty, are you?\ ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/25 "2003-03-24T07:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*And Gitmo’s in _freakin’ Cuba!!!_ It’s a tropical island, and the climate’s said to be wonderful by most accounts! Given the choice of being held prisoner in someplace like Afghanistan (where it gets really cold) and Iraq (where it gets really hot) or Cuba, I’ll take Cuba! \*\* No offense, but this somewhat rosy assertion really reminded me of [this SNL sketch](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/01/01lcampxray.phtml). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/26 "2003-03-24T07:55:31Z")
Hmmm… [ul][li]Prisoners in Gitmo get medical care and prayer mats.[/li][li]Prisoners in Iraq get bullets through the forehead.[/li][/ul] I don’t see how who holds the moral high ground is even in question. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/27 "2003-03-24T13:26:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Hmmm… > > [ul][li]Prisoners in Gitmo get medical care and prayer mats.[/li][li]Prisoners in Iraq get bullets through the forehead.[/li][/ul] > I don’t see how who holds the moral high ground is even in question. \*\* Indeed, but there are some folks out there who’re convinced that whatever the US does is _evil_. (Since the US doesn’t restrict their right to voice their opinions on the matter, I suppose that’s evil as well, too. Wonder how they reconcile that?) ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/28 "2003-03-24T16:38:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Tuckerfan_ > Indeed, but there are some folks out there who’re convinced that whatever the US does is evil. (Since the US doesn’t restrict their right to voice their opinions on the matter, I suppose that’s evil as well, too. Wonder how they reconcile that?) If you’re talking about me, I can assure that I believe there are plenty of things that the US does that are not evil. For instance, north-west indie rock, the movie About Schmidt, hip-hop, the first amendment, the civil rights movement, the protesters in San Francisco and other places, Michael Moore, New York City, the novel On The Road, The Simpsons, all those cool Universities, the commitment to innovation and development - particularly on behalf of the business community - all these and more are great things. However, what is not great is that you’re holding a man from my country without trial, and you are not treating him as International law states that he should be treated. In my mind, that is (if such a crude word must be used) evil. I suspect your hand-wringing about a group of America-haters is nothing more than a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/29 "2003-03-24T16:47:14Z")
Bottom line, in the Guantanamo affair U.S.A violated the Geneva Convention. Irak just did the same. I hope all dopers can see the difference. One nation is ruled by an evil maniac the other… well the other claims it is not ruled by an evil maniac. It’s too confusing I am goin to take a nap 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/30 "2003-03-24T16:56:09Z")
latest on this topic: 19 Afghanis have been released from Guantanamo Bay, after it was established they were not terrorists. 3 men were released last October. Here’s a link to the story: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south\_asia/2880301.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2880301.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/31 "2003-03-24T19:36:59Z")
Been away for the weekend so unable to post, but I would just like to say that the sight of Donald Rumsfeld insisting that the GC be upheld was a wondeful event! Just Google for his and Ashcroft’s wriggling around the GC a year ago. As I said, what goes around comes around. Almost as astonishing was Tony Blair’s performance- decrying the Iraqis for 'parading US servicemen" when he hasn’t had the common decency to make any substantive comment about the eight Britons held at Camp Delta against international law. Hypocrite, what! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/32 "2003-03-24T19:47:15Z")
so, **Pjen** , not a single one of the points made against your position registered with you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/33 "2003-03-24T20:07:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pjen \* > **Been away for the weekend so unable to post, but I would just like to say that the sight of Donald Rumsfeld insisting that the GC be upheld was a wondeful event!** You probably find this statement from the International Red Cross (via [abcnews.com](http://abcnews.com)) to be “wonderfully” amusing also: “International Committee of the Red Cross spokeswoman Nada Doumani said the showing of the (American) prisoners on TV violates Article 13 of the Geneva Conventions, which says prisoners should be protected from public curiosity.” Could you also comment regarding this statement: "Iraq’s minister of information threatened yesterday to treat any U.S. prisoners of war as “war criminals”. “I tell the American soldiers” said the minister, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, “it is better for you to surrender. We will cut off all your heads.” Any reaction, **Pjen** , aside from “what goes around comes around”? Could it be considered hypocritical to express outrage over treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo (including leaping to embrace false rumors, as you did in your original thread on this subject) while totally ignoring abuse of POWs and threatened murder by the Iraqis? Tough to see any point to your threads on this subject aside from expression of a puerile, gloating anti-Americanism. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/34 "2003-03-24T20:24:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > \*\*If you’re talking about me, I can assure that I believe there are plenty of things that the US does that are not evil. For instance, north-west indie rock, the movie About Schmidt, hip-hop, the first amendment, the civil rights movement, the protesters in San Francisco and other places, Michael Moore, New York City, the novel On The Road, The Simpsons, all those cool Universities, the commitment to innovation and development - particularly on behalf of the business community - all these and more are great things. > > However, what is not great is that you’re holding a man from my country without trial, and you are not treating him as International law states that he should be treated. In my mind, that is (if such a crude word must be used) evil. > > I suspect your hand-wringing about a group of America-haters is nothing more than a strawman. \*\* Who’s wringing their hands? It just disgusts me to see people who seize on _everything_ the US does and twist it around so that they can screech, “The US is evil!” as if there’s some other nation out there that is somehow perfect. Every nation on Earth does something vile, some are more vile than others. The questions one needs to ask are: Does the evil this nation does outweigh the good the nation does? And are there any nations out there who are better _overall_ than this one? IAC, screeching about it in inflammitory terms isn’t going to change things, rational debate, along with appropriate action _will_ change things. Finally, just because someone _isn’t_ being held according to international law, doesn’t mean that they are being treated inhumanely. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/35 "2003-03-24T21:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*Finally, just because someone _isn’t_ being held according to international law, doesn’t mean that they are being treated inhumanely. \*\* I’m sure they are being treated humanely. America has a pretty good record in that department. But there is still a citizen of my country being detained, who isn’t charged of any crime. I am ashamed that my country hasn’t protested this, and I’m angry at America’s government for doing this. It’s the extended unlawful detention, not the treatment, that worries me. When are they going to be charged with a crime ? When are they going to be given a trial ? Seriously, how long have they been there ? A year ? Two years ? Just because they are being treated well, doesn’t mean it isn’t a bad thing that they are being imprisoned with no reason given, no way to legally fight the charges because there aren’t any charges. By what right, moral or legal, does the American government think they can imprison people without reason ? I find that very scary. If you were being imprisoned for the same length of time, with no charges laid, wouldn’t you be a little angry about it, even if people kept pointing out that your treatment was good ? So as long as he gets decent food and shelter, the American government can hold anyone for as long as they like and answer to nobody for it ? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/36 "2003-03-24T22:23:35Z")
BBC news at ten o clock tonight (5PM EST) had an article about failure of the Iraqis to uphold the GC rules by ‘parading’ prisoners, but immediately pointed out in rebuttal that the US had done the same and worse at Guantanamo. This from the primary news source of the main US ally. Not good news coverage from the main ally! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/37 "2003-03-24T22:43:15Z")
**Shodan** , I don’t think he can hear anyone with his fingers in his ears. He must be getting the BBC via his retractible antennae. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/38 "2003-03-24T22:53:44Z")
> [@](#): > > but immediately pointed out in rebuttal that the US had done the same and worse at Guantanamo. **Pjen** , could you remind me where it is that you convincingly established that the Geneva Convention covers the criminals known as Al Qaida? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/39 "2003-03-24T23:00:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pjen \* > \*\*Not good news coverage from the main ally! \*\* I knew we never should have signed that treaty with the BBC. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072/40 "2003-03-24T23:22:29Z")
Hi, **Jackmanii** - For some reason, I thought **Pjen** was a girl. Not that it matters. Another point for you to ignore, **Pjen** - do you expect the US freeing some of the detainees at Gitmo will influence the Iraqis to treat American and UK POWs with something resembling decency? Or is their time-viewer out of whack again, and they can only see the future? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/losing-the-moral-highground-what-goes-around-comes-around/163072.md?page=3)