# Lost 1.7 "The Moth" (Non-hidden SPOILERS)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [November 3, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864 "2004-11-03T22:34:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/101 "2004-11-05T17:58:59Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#):
>
> Did anyone else catch this?
>
> When Locke was showing Chas the moth cocoon, he pointed out a tiny hole at the top, and said the moth had to struggle to get out.
>
> In the cave, Chas spots a tiny hole at the top, and had to struggle to get out.
>
> In Christianity, Jesus points out that you are in a mess in this world and have to struggle to get out!
>
> More little hints about the importance of Charlie’s spirituality, maybe. Because it was after he climbed up from death inside the world (cave) that he destroyed the drugs.
>
> My way out insight of the week.
Or maybe, Charlie’s just a Catholic, and had a hard time reconciling his faith with his rock-star lifestyle. In other words, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There’s about a billion Catholics in the world; the odds were that one would wind up as a character on a TV show sooner or later.
🙂
---
### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/102 "2004-11-05T18:04:25Z")
> [@Eats\_Crayons](#):
>
> Although I agree, **Dropzone** ’s post strongly implied she’ll actually be on the show.
Jebus, if just being a mysterious voice isn’t “on the show” I’ve got some bad news for Leslie Nielsen (the voice of Bracken on “Bracken’s World”), John Forsythe (Charlie on “Charlie’s Angels”), and Lorenzo Music (Carlton the Doorman on “Rhoda”). They didn’t really earn their paychecks. 😃
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### Author:  [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/103 "2004-11-05T18:11:20Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> Jebus, if just being a mysterious voice isn’t “on the show” I’ve got some bad news for Leslie Nielsen (the voice of Bracken on “Bracken’s World”), John Forsythe (Charlie on “Charlie’s Angels”), and Lorenzo Music (Carlton the Doorman on “Rhoda”). They didn’t really earn their paychecks. 😃
Okay, then let me rephrase:
> [@](#):
>
> **Dropzone** ’s post strongly implied that she will be on the show to the extent that she will be seen (so that older viewers can “not feel pervy ogling”), the other characters will meet her, and thus there is some mystery that may have been spoiled with respect to whether or not our heroes will find the French woman.
Better?
---
### Author:  [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/104 "2004-11-05T18:24:48Z")
And again, I’m hoping that the “yay, fresh meet to ogle” was just jumping the gun bit and we don’t REALLY know if she’s just cast as a voice over, like Jor-El, or if she’ll be onscreen.
That’s a mystery I’d like kept unspoiled.
_quitting all lost threads now for my own protection_
---
### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/105 "2004-11-05T18:44:06Z")
> [@jsc1953](#):
>
> Or maybe, Charlie’s just a Catholic, and had a hard time reconciling his faith with his rock-star lifestyle.
I’ve been thinking about this the last couple of days, and I’ve decided I liked this backstory, clichéd though certain aspects of it may be.
I thought the writing at the beginning was pretty nifty. The confession booth scene, where Charlie was telling the priest about having relations with one woman, then another woman, then watching them have relations, started out as kind of a cute joke, and then it turned into Charlie actually having a legitimate crisis of faith. It’s a nice storytelling technique to get us smiling and while our defenses are down slip into a serious moment; it makes what’s being discussed feel more significant. And for Charlie, clearly, his religious faith is very important. Even as a non-religious person myself, I really like that we’ve got a mainstream show in which a significant character struggles with his faith but keeps coming back to it. It’s a nice touch.
(Oh, and the moth-being-reborn stuff was kind of ticky-tacky, kind of notice-the-script stuff, but I thought Dominic sold it quite well, so it worked for me.)
But the reason I really like the religious angle is this: When considering Charlie, the character who most clearly has been shown to feel a need for an external moral compass, who had a choice between his church and rock-god stardom and for a remarkably long time chose church… Is it a coincidence that Charlie, who clearly needs a moral guide to replace the church he no longer has access to, has latched so strongly onto Locke, the evident mystical prophet on the show?
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### Author:  [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/106 "2004-11-05T19:36:17Z")
There I was, feeling all invisible and stuff, when BAM! Two in a row discussing my view on Charlie’s religions.
[sniff] I _do_ belong!
Anyways, I don’t think the writers of _Lost_ would just throw religion out there for a neat touch. No, for Charlie, and maybe for the series, “this means something.”
Like Scully and her subtle transformation in _X-Files_. Remember how she went from just having a Catholic background to really believing that something is out there? For Mulder, it was aliens. For Scully, it was God.
Maybe, this island lets you decide what it is going to be for you. For some, it’s redemption. For others, rebirth. Both very religious concepts if one applies it that way.
Or, it could all be part of the smoke and mirrrors of the series for US.
Time will tell, but making Charlie a religious man has a purpose, imho.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/107 "2004-11-05T21:24:05Z")
> [@Eats\_Crayons](#):
>
> Better?
Better, but you were closer when you suggested I was jumping the gun and just a wee bit too hopeful (since I had not gone to any of the spoiler sites and have no idea if she will be more than a sexy accent) that I’d get to ogle her.
As for your threat to quit “Lost” threads for fear of spoilers, I trust you are joking.
I’m not surprised that Charlie is religious. It’s a continuation of the “Things are not as they seem” theme running through the show: Pretty, sweet, and feminine Kate is a scary international fugitive (that Fed didn’t want anyone selling her short), Jin is not just a businessman but is also the “muscle” in a Korean gang, Sun really speaks English, Locke is “really” a crippled wannabe, Shannon isn’t a COMPLETE flake, and Jack isn’t really a doctor (not a spoiler, just a guess based on how his father continued to talk to him after he grew up).
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### Author:  [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/108 "2004-11-05T21:36:22Z")
For comic fans (though no one took my “Mogo Doesn’t Socialize” bait), did anyone notice that Paul Dini wrote this episode? He is listed as a Story Editor every week.
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### Author:  [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/109 "2004-11-06T08:12:25Z")
**watsonwil.** I did see Paul Dini’s name in the credits and wondered if that was the same Paul Dini of the WB Batman/Superman cartoons fame. He’s probably the one who suggested that FLASH comic with the polar bears that was deliberately planted as a clue. Hmmmm.
As for Mogo, I’ll start keeing an eye out for large swathes of well-tended grasses and in the clearings that indicate signs of some mysterious intelligence. Y’know, like SIGNS minus the pretentiousness.
Well, thank you, **masonite** … I was beginning to think no one noticed or appreciated my guesses about the secondary meanings of the episode titles so far… the only thing I didn’t guess was the appearance of an actual moth to facilitate the double meaning/symbolism/episode theme… so I think instead of two meanings, we had the literal appearances of several moths and Charlie emerging from his own cocoon as a symbolic one…
As for why they chose “Moth” over “Butterfly,” **masonite** … I think your own question contains part of the answer… butterfly, being more familair, simply doesn’t evoke the same sense of ambiguity and mystery as “The Moth”. Plus, it’s easier to explain why a nocturnal moth might appear in a lightless cave-in than a butterfly…
But maybe they won’t be continuing the episode title double meaning clues pattern. I have NO clue what they’re doing in upcoming episodes like “Raised By Another,” “All The Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues” and “Hearts and Minds”— well, I can think of _one_ for “Daddy Issues” but it’s kind of in poor taste,
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### Author:  [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/110 "2004-11-06T13:35:31Z")
[I appears to be the same Paul Dini.](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0227704/)
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### Author:  [@Elethiomel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elethiomel)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/111 "2004-11-06T18:21:05Z")
If Sayid was able to make antennae that were directional enough to be used for triangulation in a “find-the-direction-to-the-signal-from-here” sense, then he’d need only two measuring points (and he’d have to swing the antenna back and forth to find out from which direction the signal was strongest). I suspect that he was unable to do that from the scrap and spare parts he had available. Instead, he’d have to use the “measure the time the signal takes to points 1, 2, and 3 and figure out the difference” method. In this case, you -always- need three antennae, because two antennae will give you a line rather than a point, and you -always- need to measure it simultaneously, because if you don’t you can’t measure the time differential in any meaningful way (well, you could if you could move several times the speed of light).
I never watch the previews for next week. I enjoy speculation, but I only gather my actual information from one source - the show in and of itself. What actors are in it, I ignore. I don’t watch the credits - writers’ names, producers’ names, etc, I can find out from TV-Tome after the fact. Thus, I shall stay out of future Lost threads unless the OP states clearly that any information that is not part of this week’s show - and then I mean part of the _show_ not the credits, previews, etc - will be spoiler-boxed. That’s just little old me, though.
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### Author:  [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/112 "2004-11-06T19:36:59Z")
Someone was asking for a translator for the parts when the Korean wasn’t subtitled. I forget what exactly was needed, but I did remember someone asking what she was saying in that scene where Michael asked her to watch his kid. What she said was “'I understand, don’t worry, I will watch him.” and when Michael leaves she tells the boy “don’t worry, your dad will be fine.”
So pretty basic stuff.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/113 "2004-11-06T23:31:54Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#):
>
> I’m Steve, he’s Scott.
>
> Well, if **I** was around Charlie, I’d try to take the drugs in case the doctor needed them. While not the best choice in the world, it might beat having your apendix removed with just a branch between your teeth…
That thought occured to me, too. Instead of hurling them in the fire, it would have been more practical and helpful for Charlie to turn them over to the doctor. While dangerous, opiates (I’m assuming they’re some kind of opiates) do have medical uses.
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### Author:  [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2004, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/114 "2004-11-07T07:29:09Z")
Bah! He _needed_ to throw them out, to prove to himself that he was stronger than the addiction. It’s drama, people!
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### Author:  [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2004, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/115 "2004-11-07T14:20:37Z")
Agree. The symbolism was stronger this way. Imagine the other scene:
Charlie: “Hey, Doc. Want some drugs?”
Jack: “No! Of course I don’t want any drugs, you junky. Oh wait, you mean to keep on hand for use in case anyone gets seriously injured or needs a major operation? Well, sure, little buddy. That’s realy nice of you.”
Charlie: “Yeah. Well, you know. I’m famous, you know. But I don’t want to be a drug addict anymore. I want to be in control of my own destiny.”
Jack: “Yeah.”
Charlie: “Yeah.”
[long pause]
Charlie: “So…, Kate’s pretty hot.”
Jack: “Yeah. She sure sweats a lot, tho. Not like that Chinese chick.”
Charlie: “Yeah! She’s SMOKIN’! And not Chinese, by the way. Korean.”
Jack: “Yeah?”
Charlie: “Yeah.”
['nother long pause]
Jack: “So…, what’s the deal with Locke?”
Charlie: “I don’t know man. Kinda weirds me out, you know?”
Jack: “Yeah.”
Charlie: “Hey, look! Is that a digital representation of a moth?”
Jack: “Sure looks like one. Man, this island blows.”
Charlie: “Yeah.”
Jack: “Yeah.”
Doggie: “Arf.”
Much better the way they did it. Yeah.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/116 "2004-11-07T17:30:26Z")
Yeah, I know why they did it. But it was a cliche this way, and it would have been cool to have avoided a cliche.
**Charlie** (to Locke): Give me back my drugs!
**Locke** : OK, if you’re sure about this…this is the third time. _Hands Charlie the drugs._
_Charlies marches over to Jack._
**Charlie** (to Jack): Here. You should take these. Other people may wind up needing them more than I do.
See, we not only get the “junkie beating the monkey”\* theme, we also get a reinforcement of the “everyone beginning to pull together as a community” theme.
\*Yeah, I know what that sounds like, but I don’t care.
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### Author:  [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/117 "2004-11-07T18:17:59Z")
> [@Askia](#):
>
> As for why they chose “Moth” over “Butterfly,” **masonite** … I think your own question contains part of the answer… butterfly, being more familair, simply doesn’t evoke the same sense of ambiguity and mystery as “The Moth”. Plus, it’s easier to explain why a nocturnal moth might appear in a lightless cave-in than a butterfly…
See now, I took it to be a reference to Charlie and his brother. When Locke points out the cocoon and Charlie guesses a butterfly’s inside, Locke says something about how butterflies get all the attention but moths are cooler. Like how Charlie’s brother got all the attention in the band when it was Charlie who started off as the driving force.
In other words, completely ham-fisted.
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### Author:  [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/118 "2004-11-07T18:43:09Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#):
>
> Yeah, I know why they did it. But it was a cliche this way, and it would have been cool to have avoided a cliche.
>
> **Charlie** (to Locke): Give me back my drugs!
> **Locke** : OK, if you’re sure about this…this is the third time. _Hands Charlie the drugs._
>
> _Charlies marches over to Jack._
>
> **Charlie** (to Jack): Here. You should take these. Other people may wind up needing them more than I do.
But the problem with that is the drugs would still be _around_. Charlie knows he’s weak in the face of temptation, and by throwing them in the fire he’s making his choice final. No chance of him going crazy next week and trying to fight Jack for them, or stealing them in the night. This act has more finality to it. There is no going back to the drugs for Charlie - time to move on and see what he can contribute now that all of his waking thoughts aren’t going to be about his stash.
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/119 "2004-11-07T22:44:04Z")
Just caught the show last night on a repeat. Great episode!
A coupla things about Charlie’s spiritual stuff. I’m surprised that no-one has commented on the cause of the cave-in – unless it’s because it’s so obvious. Instant (and ironic) smiting for his hubris:
Charlie: “I AM A ROCK GOD!!!”
Oh yeah? _gentle shower of rocks_ 😃
About the “moth/butterfly” thing, while butterflies are the usual transformational symbol, moths are more specifically symbolic because they’re nocturnal and grope toward the light. You’ve got the additional level there that they can be destructively drawn toward terrestrial light (such as a candle’s flame,) but the primary impulse is to strive idealistically for distant celestial light (as the moon.) Butterflies don’t have that going on. Also, as Locke (and another poster, somewhere up there) pointed out, butterflies get the attention because they are gaudy, but moths spin silk. Charlie’s sense of self-worth is shifting from being based on being _admired_, to being _admirable_. From here on in, he’ll be doing a lot less fishing for attention for being ‘famous’ (and being petulant when people seem disinterested,) and more time pitching in with the quotidian tasks that need to be doneto ensure the group’s survival.
The story John Locke related is a well-known inspirational allegory:
> [@](#):
>
> **The Moth**
> A man found a cocoon of an emperor moth. He took it home, so that he could watch the moth come out of the cocoon. One day, a small opening appeared, and he sat still, watching for several hours, as the moth struggled to force its body through the little hole. Then it seemed to stop making any progress. It appeared as if it had gotten as far as it could and it could go no farther. It seemed to be stuck. Then the man, in his kindness, decided to help the moth.
>
> So he took a pair of scissors and snipped off the remaining bit of the cocoon. The moth then emerged easily. But it had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings. The man continued to watch the moth, because he expected at any moment the wings would enlarge and expand to be able to support the body, which would contract in time. Neither happened! In fact, the little moth spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings. It never was able to fly.
>
> What the man in his kindness and haste did not understand was that the restricting cocoon and the struggle required for the moth to get through the tiny opening, were God’s way of forcing fluid from the body of the moth, into its wings, so it would be ready for flight, once it achieved its freedom from the cocoon. Freedom and flight would only come after the struggle. By depriving the moth of a struggle, the man deprived the moth of health.
>
> Sometimes, struggles are exactly what we need in our life. If God allowed us to go through our life without any obstacles, He would cripple us. We would not be as strong as what we could have been.
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### Author:  [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-1-7-the-moth-non-hidden-spoilers/272864/120 "2004-11-07T22:47:48Z")
Well, my theory is that Dominic Monaghan (Charlie) _wanted_ the “throwing into the fire” scene written in.
After all, he’s spent a fair percentage of his adult life working on a project in which there’s an object that has the power to control the minds of even the strongest beings, and is almost impossible to give up voluntarily. In _that_ story, some **other** short guys went off to toss it into the fire, so Dom/Charlie probably figured it was his turn to do a “see I _can_ destroy the Preciousss” scene.
Add that to his “hobbits are really good at getting into and out of holes in the ground” act in this episode, and his hoodie looking a bit like an Elven cloak or Nazgul robe (as well as the obvious monk’s robe harking back to his Catholicism), and I conclude that the “Lost” writers are having a bit of fun with references to Dom’s best-known previous role (no offence intended to Hetty Wainthropp fans).
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