# Lost 2.12: "Fire + Water" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505 "2006-01-25T03:45:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/141 "2006-01-27T05:40:21Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I forgot about Eko. Eko has obviously had the most experience in the fighting/badass department, and is obviously extremely fit. And he can just beat Locke with his Jesus stick. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/142 "2006-01-27T05:48:44Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I disagree with this notion. Locke has been liberated from a shitty life in society by being stuck on the island. Heā€™s thrived in it, become a hardcore hunter-gatherer, because heā€™s in a situation where he can express an inner need to be a primal warrior type that wasnā€™t applicable in his previous life. The ability to fight is as much, or more, about will than physical ability. > > I wouldnā€™t bet against him in a fight against anyone there, except perhaps Sawyer, who probably has been in quite a few fights in his lifetime. Or Sayid, but only if he was highly motivated. Thatā€™s cool. Weā€™re free to disagree. I love the actor who plays Locke, so Iā€™m not taking any of this too personally. You make a good point about his being able to hold his own in a fight with just about anyone. He does seem pretty tough, and Iā€™d rather not mess with someone who travels with a suitcase full of knives, has an encyclopaedic knowledge about survival in the wild, kills large boars and faces down mysterious tropical polar bears. I just think heā€™s been kinda pussy about who he chooses to dominate physically and I think dominating people physically is pussy in general. If Jack & Sayid & Sawyer wanna get into it, let 'em. Punching out Charlie just seems pussy. Claire already smacked him. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/143 "2006-01-27T06:20:51Z")
I donā€™t think anyone else has really given Locke a reason to punch them. Charlie was waaaaaay out of line, and probably deserved a good Jesus stick beating. I donā€™t see Locke as trying to bully the weak so much as express anger and punish someone whoā€™d put everyone in danger (probably, from his perspective, due to drug-induced craziness). If Jack did something so selfish and stupid I donā€™t think Locke would have a problem with having the same reaction if it were appropriate. I donā€™t think heā€™d back down like a bully would when faced with someone who couldnā€™t be easily intimidated. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/144 "2006-01-27T06:54:32Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I donā€™t think anyone else has really given Locke a reason to punch them. Which should be interesting. I get the feeling that thereā€™s a showdown building either between Locke & Jack, or Locke & Eko. What will Locke do? Use his fists, or use his mind? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/145 "2006-01-27T13:04:35Z")
> [@Rich Mann](#): > > What if Libby recognizes Hurley from the TV coverage of his winning the lottery. Perhap sheā€™s a gold-digger who was following him around, waiting for the right time to introduce herself and thatā€™s why he recognizes her. Her plan was, and still is, to get close to him, marry him, divorce him, and collect half his $156,000,000. (Or kill him and get it all.) This is the first thing I thought on seeing the laundry scene. It just seemed improbable that after such a short time together sheā€™d be all over him, as much as Hurley is a cool guy, heā€™s also unattractive, has no self confidence, and is surrounded by hunky single guys. The whole foot thing is a ruse, so Hurley knows her from somewhere else, I think she knows about the lottery. On Locke, if it were someone else, like Sayid, he may not have punched him in the face, heā€™d be pulling a knife or gun instead. I donā€™t see him as a bully, but choosing to use an appropriate weapon, fists for Charlie, something a bit sturdier for a stronger opponent. ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/146 "2006-01-27T13:16:26Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > You make a good point about his being able to hold his own in a fight with just about anyone. He does seem pretty tough, and Iā€™d rather not mess with someone who travels with a suitcase full of knives, has an encyclopaedic knowledge about survival in the wild, kills large boars and faces down mysterious tropical polar bears. > > I just think heā€™s been kinda pussy about who he chooses to dominate physically and I think dominating people physically is pussy in general. If Jack & Sayid & Sawyer wanna get into it, let 'em. Punching out Charlie just seems pussy. Claire already smacked him. Emphasis mine. Locke only _seems_ like heā€™s a tough guy, but I donā€™t think he actually is. Heā€™s overcompensating, I think. Before he got on the island, he was a pushover. Now, he doesnā€™t have to be any more, because _nobody knows who or what he was before_. But heā€™s never actually done this wilderness survival stuff. This ā€œbadass-with-a-suitcase-full-of-knivesā€ routine? _Itā€™s all an act_. His behavior strikes me as the low-level panic of a poseur who just dropped the wrong name and got made. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/147 "2006-01-27T13:37:19Z")
> [@rockle](#): > > Emphasis mine. Locke only _seems_ like heā€™s a tough guy, but I donā€™t think he actually is. Heā€™s overcompensating, I think. Before he got on the island, he was a pushover. Now, he doesnā€™t have to be any more, because _nobody knows who or what he was before_. But heā€™s never actually done this wilderness survival stuff. This ā€œbadass-with-a-suitcase-full-of-knivesā€ routine? _Itā€™s all an act_. His behavior strikes me as the low-level panic of a poseur who just dropped the wrong name and got made. very trueā€¦ in a show where so many people have problematic relationships with their fathers, I see Locke as akng on some uber-father role for Claire/Aaronā€¦ only on Lost would the mothers not get the raw deal, psychologically speaking! ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/148 "2006-01-27T14:06:59Z")
> [@rockle](#): > > Emphasis mine. Locke only _seems_ like heā€™s a tough guy, but I donā€™t think he actually is. Heā€™s overcompensating, I think. Before he got on the island, he was a pushover. Now, he doesnā€™t have to be any more, because _nobody knows who or what he was before_. But heā€™s never actually done this wilderness survival stuff. This ā€œbadass-with-a-suitcase-full-of-knivesā€ routine? _Itā€™s all an act_. His behavior strikes me as the low-level panic of a poseur who just dropped the wrong name and got made. I couldnā€™t disagree more. There are lots of people who are completely disenfranchised in modern society. They donā€™t feel as though they belong. Everything is safe and artificial and irrelevant. They crave something more primal, being forced into a situation where their own inner strength and skillset are crucial to their very existance. When thrown into a wild situation like this, they find themselves in their element - the element theyā€™ve always wanted to be in. Thereā€™s a transformation. Theyā€™re not hiding the apparent weakness they showed in society - that ā€œweaknessā€ wasnā€™t a weakness of will or character so much as the disenfranchisement I mentioned. Pre-crash, Locke did not have the opportunity to be the man he is now, the man heā€™s always had the strength to be inside. Far from an act, heā€™s finally, more than anyone else, at home. ---
**Author:** ![MrsMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@MrsMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrsMonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/149 "2006-01-27T14:39:30Z")
> [@FlightlessBird](#): > > Can some kind person help me out here. I may be going crazy. Is it possible that seeing the black smoke monster is causing Charlie to go 'round the bend? Also, in Charlieā€™s dream (Baptism of Jesus) did the Dove make the monsterā€™s noises when it came out of the sky? Apparently it was the sound of an airplane. A link to the scene - only visible on HDTV apparently: > **[An HD-only feature in 2x12](https://lostdiscussion.livejournal.com/30267.html)** > > I cant really say this is an easter egg because it's part of the story line, but this was only viewable to people with HD. You can clearly see a plane (the drug plane? It doesn't really look at like it, but its a plane.) on the left side crashing.... ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/150 "2006-01-27T14:44:13Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Pre-crash, Locke did not have the opportunity to be the man he is now, the man heā€™s always had the strength to be inside. Far from an act, heā€™s finally, more than anyone else, at home. Perhaps, but ā€¦ is Lockeā€™s transformation actually _real_? (We still have no idea why he can now walk.) And, if it is, and Locke actually _is_ the man he always thought he could be, is he prepared to handle the consequences of that? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/151 "2006-01-27T14:57:52Z")
> [@rockle](#): > > Perhaps, but ā€¦ is Lockeā€™s transformation actually _real_? (We still have no idea why he can now walk.) And, if it is, and Locke actually _is_ the man he always thought he could be, is he prepared to handle the consequences of that? I have no doubt of that - his character has been entirely consistant with that and he is by far the most real character to me (ignoring the mystical stuff). ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/152 "2006-01-27T15:10:17Z")
Hereā€™s something interesting. This seems to show the drug plane crashing. Look at the top left of the image. It takes a little bit to completely load, then itā€™ll play over and over. [Link](http://community.livejournal.com/lostdiscussion/30267.html#cutid1) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/153 "2006-01-27T15:10:58Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Really? Do you get the vibe that heā€™s an insecure coward? I donā€™t think heā€™d hesistate to punch anyone on the island if he had a good reason. You mean, like, shooting Shannon? ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/154 "2006-01-27T15:23:25Z")
I think Locke was motivated by: 1. He cares for Aaron and Claire. Maybe there is a romantic tie, maybe it is just a protection of the weak thing. 2. Charlie is his responsibility of sorts. He knew about Charlieā€™s problems and thought Charlie had made the right choice. When he thought he hadnā€™t, Locke may have felt guilty he did not do more. 3. Charlie twice stole the baby. Cā€™mon. The guyā€™s a baby snatcher who caught a fire. What more motivation do you need to put the smack down on someone? Locke had warned him to stay away from her. Charlieā€™s idea of staying away is burning down a field so he can run into the ocean with the baby. 4. Betrayal. It is worse when one of your own does something bad than an outsider. CFL may have taken Aaron, but Charlie violated a trust. Verdict: Justifiable Butt Whupping. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/155 "2006-01-27T15:35:00Z")
> [@vaderspal](#): > > crap! sorry, new member + unfamilar keyboard = trouble > > _ahem_ > > Did anyone else think that Libby looked COMPLETELY different? I could hardly pay attention to the Hurley/laundry scene because I was trying to work out if it was a different actress. Am I crazy? If it was the same woman, I swear she got botox or something - her usually great expressive eyes were all weird. It just looked to me like she had cleaned herself up. The tailies were pretty ragged before they hooked up with the middies. BTW, Claire looked like she had just come from the make-up department at Nordstromā€™s. How about a little realism in that area, guys?? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/156 "2006-01-27T16:19:51Z")
> [@Trion](#): > > I especially liked the bit at the end where Ecko was performing the ceremony out on the beach while Locke was locking the Virgin Mary up behind and iron door. Evil Locke. Evil evil evil. Donā€™t buy it. Last week Ecko SMASH the Virgin Mary. Later, Ecko burned a whole mess of the Virgins Mary. Evil Ecko? Sua ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/157 "2006-01-27T16:20:37Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > 1. Betrayal. It is worse when one of your own does something bad than an outsider. CFL may have taken Aaron, but Charlie violated a trust. > > Verdict: Justifiable Butt Whupping. This was what I got from the scene too. I think it was a combination of dissapointment and frustration. Anyway, Charlie absolutely had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/158 "2006-01-27T16:26:35Z")
> [@SuaSponte](#): > > Donā€™t buy it. Last week Ecko SMASH the Virgin Mary. Later, Ecko burned a whole mess of the Virgins Mary. Evil Ecko? > > Sua No, good Ecko. Ecko give Virgin Mary to Charlie. Locke keep Virgin Mary hidden for himself. Bad Locke. Trion like talk like this. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/159 "2006-01-27T16:53:27Z")
So, now that all losties have moved from the caves back to the beach and have access to unlimited fresh water from the hatch, why is Locke filling his water bottle from a horse tough sitting open on the beach? Itā€™s a good thing that they have an unlimited supply of blue tarps because after a few days in the sun and wind, those things start to look pretty ragged and develop rips and tears. In fifty days I would think that everyone would have had to replace those tarps at least once, if not a couple of times. Did the monsoon season ever arrive, or was Artz full of it? When is cyclone season expected to arrive? ---
**Author:** ![MrsMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@MrsMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrsMonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/160 "2006-01-27T19:05:50Z")
Donā€™t know if anyone has seen this ā€” a [jpg of a document](http://www.oceanicworldair.com/PAC01IA023.jpg) from the oceanicworldair siteā€¦ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505.md?page=9)