# Lost 2.12: "Fire + Water" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505 "2006-01-25T03:45:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/161 "2006-01-27T19:11:04Z")
> [@UncleRojelio](#): > > Did the monsoon season ever arrive, or was Artz full of it? When is cyclone season expected to arrive? It’s only been about a week and a half since Artz got hisself blowed up. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/162 "2006-01-27T19:32:21Z")
well, the N number is obviously fake, since "O’ is now allowed. And up above it says 747-422 but below it says 747-400 Close but different than NTSB reports (probably because it come from the NASC 🙂 ) Brian ---
**Author:** ![Dante](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dante/32/9673_2.png) [@Dante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/163 "2006-01-27T21:14:01Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > Here’s something interesting. This seems to show the drug plane crashing. Look at the top left of the image. It takes a little bit to completely load, then it’ll play over and over. > > [Link](http://community.livejournal.com/lostdiscussion/30267.html#cutid1) Nice link, thanks! I was watching it at a friend’s place in HD and could have sworn I saw that, but they all said I was crazy! This’ll show 'em!!! BTW, does that look like an entirely different type of plane? A guy here at the office thinks it’s a Lockheed Hudson or Electra. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/164 "2006-01-27T22:24:17Z")
> [@vaderspal](#): > > Did anyone else think that Libby looked COMPLETELY different? I could hardly pay attention to the Hurley/laundry scene because I was trying to work out if it was a different actress. Am I crazy? If it was the same woman, I swear she got botox or something - her usually great expressive eyes were all weird. Well, she cleans up really well. I’ll be in my bunk. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/165 "2006-01-27T22:34:43Z")
> [@Oslo Ostragoth](#): > > Well, she cleans up really well. > > I’ll be in my bunk. Maybe she’s sober now? She did have that little incident in Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/166 "2006-01-28T01:04:58Z")
> [@Dante](#): > > Nice link, thanks! I was watching it at a friend’s place in HD and could have sworn I saw that, but they all said I was crazy! This’ll show 'em!!! > > BTW, does that look like an entirely different type of plane? A guy here at the office thinks it’s a Lockheed Hudson or Electra. I thought it was a Beech 18. [Beechcraft 18 Expeditor](http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/expeditor.html) [Lockheed Electra](http://airlines.afriqonline.com/images/h043.jpg) [Lockheed Hudson](http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10324000/10324670.jpg) It’s the right size to be a Beech 18. A Lockheed Electra is substantially larger, and the plane that crashed just doesn’t look like a Hudson at all. They all have the twin-boom tails, though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/167 "2006-01-28T04:49:28Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > Here’s something interesting. This seems to show the drug plane crashing. Look at the top left of the image. It takes a little bit to completely load, then it’ll play over and over. > > [Link](http://community.livejournal.com/lostdiscussion/30267.html#cutid1) Has anyone verified that this was actually broadcast? I just rewatched this episode, in Hi Def, and I slo-mo’ed thru that scene, but I couldn’t see the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/168 "2006-01-28T04:52:40Z")
> [@Wile E](#): > > Another thing that Charlie never really dealt with was killing Ethan. Plus there was that whole, y’know, dangling from a tree by your neck thing. (Is it just me, or was that Chewbacca on the radio in the preview?) ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_Mann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/169 "2006-01-28T05:56:58Z")
> [@Dante](#): > > Nice link, thanks! I was watching it at a friend’s place in HD and could have sworn I saw that, but they all said I was crazy! This’ll show 'em!!! > > BTW, does that look like an entirely different type of plane? A guy here at the office thinks it’s a Lockheed Hudson or Electra. That’s an idea. If it was a vision of the past and it _was_ an Electra then Adam and Eve from the cave are Amelia Earhart and her navigator (Manning?). Boy, that was easy. Next I guess i’ll tackle the whole Hoffa thing. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/170 "2006-01-28T06:16:21Z")
Fred Noonan was Earhart’s navigator. ---
**Author:** ![jaderabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@jaderabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaderabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/171 "2006-01-28T06:33:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > …" > Locke never saw her after she stole the baby. Only Sayid and Charlie did. > This is one of my biggest complaints. They need to go get her. Especially if they’re building an army-- she knows a lot about the island and how to set traps, etc. Plus, they should tell her that her daughter is alive (although she’d probably really go off the deep end if she knew). Sometimes I wonder how much the Losties tell each other. It was Sayid who heard about Alex first. He and Charlie later heard the references to “her child,” but I’m not sure if Charlie actually heard the name. Sayid and Charlie weren’t in the little adventuring party that talked to Zeke. It’s possibly that only Sayid knows that CFL has a daughter named Alex, and that only Locke, Kate, Jack, and Sawyer know there’s a woman named Alex on the island. On another note, does anyone else think the whole “save the baby” thing isn’t about Aaron at all? “The boy” wasn’t Aaron either. Maybe “the baby” is Liam’s Baby Brother, a.k.a. Charlie. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/172 "2006-01-28T06:39:14Z")
> [@Trion](#): > > No, good Ecko. Ecko give Virgin Mary to Charlie. Locke keep Virgin Mary hidden for himself. Bad Locke. > > Trion like talk like this. Me like too! This form of speech fit this form of show! Unk! ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/173 "2006-01-28T07:35:18Z")
> [@MrsMonkey](#): > > Don’t know if anyone has seen this — a [jpg of a document](http://www.oceanicworldair.com/PAC01IA023.jpg) from the oceanicworldair site… Adam and Eve? ---
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/174 "2006-01-28T14:40:57Z")
Put me in the apparent minority of people who liked this episode. So it didn’t answer any of the mysterious questions regarding everyone… but it certainly gave us a glimpse into the almost day-to-day life of these guys. In any group, no matter what the size, conflict amongst the members is inevitable. I, for one, enjoyed seeing how this conflict played out, soley within the confines of the lives of the survivors (i.e. no outsider influence). As to why they haven’t gone exploring, it seems to me that something bad always seems to happen when they go too far from the beach: Take a raft off the beach? Raft gets burned, people get shot and kidnapped. Go deep into the jungle? People disappear and/or get confronted by wild-looking guys with the ability to produce a ring of fire from nowhere. Explore the shoreline? Find a power cable, get whacked by a CFL. And every now and then, trees explode and black smoke goes around like a drunken ghost. After all that, I’d defintely want to stay at the beach and/or within the confines of familiar places. Apart from that, why would you _want_ to leave the beach? It’s your best place of being spotted by someone for rescue and also seems to be the safest place to be (relatively speaking). You’ve got access to food, water, and now that the hatch is open, some other creature comforts that don’t demand that you go exploring. And once you fall into a routine, well… why break it? I wasn’t too fond of Locke’s actions in this episode, but at the same time felt that he had plenty of reason for them. Even if he didn’t think that Charlie was using again, Charlie’s actions were certainly inexcusable. When he punched Charlie, he wasn’t doing it out of anger, but in punishment. I got the feeling that Charlie was experiencing hallucination flashbacks. But if he _wasn’t_, I get my own vision of the Island Controllers saying “Okay, now let’s send visions to an ex-drug junkie and see how he reacts. Even better, let’s see how the populace reacts _to_ his visions: Will they think he’s using again or will they think it’s just another crazy thing on the island?” Although, if they were sent as a test of character, just about everyone invovled failed. My thoughts on why nobody’s kept heroine for medical reasons? Would anyone _but_ Jack actually know how helpful they could be? I had no idea until I came here. We’ve got thousands of people’s experiences and information to draw upon in our own little Lost-addicted culture; they’ve only got 40. ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/175 "2006-01-28T14:43:00Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Has anyone verified that this was actually broadcast? I just rewatched this episode, in Hi Def, and I slo-mo’ed thru that scene, but I couldn’t see the plane. I re-watched the scene last night, in HD, and it was exactly like the loop linked to in **Honey** ’s post. You don’t need to slow-mo, it’s clearly visible as soon as the scene changes after hearing the airplane sound. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/176 "2006-01-28T20:01:03Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Has anyone verified that this was actually broadcast? I just rewatched this episode, in Hi Def, and I slo-mo’ed thru that scene, but I couldn’t see the plane. When I watched it on my sad lil’ non-HDTV my impression that there was a plane crashing in the background that transformed into a dove and flew past. For whatever that’s worth. But that’s what I’d thought before I’d read or seen aything else. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/177 "2006-01-28T20:04:05Z")
> [@jaderabbit](#): > > On another note, does anyone else think the whole “save the baby” thing isn’t about Aaron at all? “The boy” wasn’t Aaron either. Maybe “the baby” is Liam’s Baby Brother, a.k.a. Charlie. Back on page 2 of this thread someone posed a theory that got really close to this idea. And if you watch the episode again, some where before the fire, Locke says this almost in the same exact words. He says, “Charlie’s just trying to save Aaron because he can’t save himself.” And right after that there’s a flashback where Charlie’s brother calls him “Baby Brother” a lot in one conversation. I sort of thought it was obvious (guess not) that this is what the entire episode was about: baptism by fire and baptisms by water. There are both throughout the episode. Eko is right: Charlie does need to save the baby: himself. As soon as he learns how to save himself, he’s redeemed. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/178 "2006-01-29T00:40:31Z")
With respect to Locke hitting Charlie: Pessimistic: Locke has taken to Claire (building Aaron a crib, asking about “our boy”), and this is the manifestation of sexual possession. Optimistic: After setting a fire, and taking Aaron to the water, Charklie was surrounded by a potentially violent mob. Locke knew that by hitting Charlie, their desire for vengeance would be appeased, and it would be easier and more effective than trying to drag twenty people off of Charlie. Realistic: Yeah, you’re probably right; Locke was pissed at Charlie backsliding and acting like he was out of control. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/179 "2006-01-30T03:53:31Z")
Plynck: all three scenarios makes sense, your Optimistic to Realistic assessments, obviously, appealing to me more. Put me down for “On the fence.” This week’s show didn’t blow me away, but I was scarcely bored, except maybe during the flashbacks. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505/180 "2006-01-30T06:25:47Z")
I realize that the realities of baby actors is a factor, but doesn’t Aaron seem pretty big for a nine day old baby? He’s growing faster than Walt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-2-12-fire-water/341505.md?page=8)