# Lost 3.19: "The Brig" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452 "2007-05-02T13:41:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/181 "2007-05-04T18:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] But after reading the above I’m not so sure. If Ben really wanted to keep Juliet’s mole-status a secret, why would he be listening to the recording right after he ordered Zeke to summon Locke? [/QUOTE] IIRC, he told Locke that Juliet was a mole. The recorder just gave him proof. > [@](#): > > (3) is just a non-starter, and although I know **Gfactor** is joking, Well it’s a non-starter because that’s all I could come up with. It’s really just a name for neither (1) nor (2). It’s hard to see how Ben benefits from Sawyer being able to prove that Juliet is in on another kidnapping plot unless he wants her dead. It’s also hard to see how Ben benefits from the kidnapping plot being known in advance . . . unless . . . it’s more complicated. So yeah, I just threw that in there because I’m not convinced of either (1) or (2) but couldn’t come up with anything better. > [@](#): > > perhaps I’m in on it as well and just haven’t figured it out yet 🙂 You mean you aren’t? :eek: And I’ll bet you have no way to contact this ship either. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/182 "2007-05-04T18:35:06Z")
[QUOTE=wasson] When did Ben say he didn’t know why Cooper was there? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=transcript–thanks to John Mace] LOCKE: Dad? \*\*What is this? BEN: You tell me. You brought him here. \*\* LOCKE: I didn’t bring him here. BEN: I’d be careful about getting too close to him, John. [Tom holds a tazer as John steps nearer] LOCKE: (Mumbles) Where did you find him? \*\*Why did you bring him here? BEN: I already said. We didn’t. \*\* LOCKE: You want me to ask him how he got here? BEN: Be my guest. [Locke pulls of the gag and Cooper bites his hand violently] BEN: Tom! [Tom tazers Cooper, allowing John to free himself] BEN: I warned you, John. COOPER: Don’t you know, John? Don’t you know where we are? [Tom closes the door quickly, keeping Locke outside] LOCKE: [To Ben] What did he mean? BEN: I’m afraid we don’t have time to deal with that right now, John. We’re leaving first thing in the morning, all of us. [/QUOTE] [http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The\_Brig\_transcript](http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Brig_transcript) So Ben doesn’t come right out and say he knows \*why \* Cooper is there, but he does claim he didn’t bring him and that Locke should know why he’s here. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/183 "2007-05-04T18:43:55Z")
[QUOTE=SuperNelson] Almost like debating whether it’s more reasonable to find an African or Asian elephant in your pajamas. [/QUOTE] Must… not… type… African or European… d’oh! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/184 "2007-05-04T19:25:02Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If it’s to get back at Juliet, it seems like a pretty complicated way to do that. Did I say “complicated”? 🙂 [/QUOTE] Not really. If you want to get rid of someone who is infiltrating a group, and keep your hands clean, it seems like a very simple way to do it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/185 "2007-05-04T19:57:29Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] So Ben doesn’t come right out and say he knows \*why \* Cooper is there, but he does claim he didn’t bring him and that Locke should know why he’s here. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’m going to go with “He’s lying”. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/186 "2007-05-04T20:26:32Z")
[QUOTE=wasson] Speaking of however long the show lasts, does anyone know what’s going on with that? I know the producers were fighting with ABC asking for a definite “stop” time, so they could wrap up the series cleanly instead of dragging it out forever. Anything ever come of that? [/QUOTE] I will quote you now from [www.spoilerfix.com](http://www.spoilerfix.com), the place I go when I’m weak. I don’t think this is a spoiler. By they way, they are getting it from Kristen at E!Online. > [@](#): > > ABC is set to announce that Lost will end production after two more seasons. According to sources, ABC is planning to push back Lost’s return date to January of next year in order to air new episodes back-to-back, and it is also “extremely likely” that Lost will change time slots next season. So, five seasons. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/187 "2007-05-04T20:36:56Z")
[QUOTE=Trion] I will quote you now from [www.spoilerfix.com](http://www.spoilerfix.com), the place I go when I’m weak. I don’t think this is a spoiler. By they way, they are getting it from Kristen at E!Online. So, five seasons. [/QUOTE] Damn. I kinda want it to be over. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/188 "2007-05-04T20:46:28Z")
I hope they try something like The Lost Experience again. I didn’t start watching until Season Three (after a summer of catching up). I’d heard about the commercial clues in Season Two, but obviously missed it altogether. The very first episode of S3 I had pen and paper in hand just in case a suspect 800 number appeared. Great way to get people to watch commercials - sheesh ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/189 "2007-05-04T21:26:23Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Yeah, I’m going to go with “He’s lying”. -Joe [/QUOTE] Yeah, with what The Man From Tallahassee said, I thought it was clear he was abducted: > [@TMFT](#): > > COOPER: Island? OK. I’m driving down I10 through Tallahassee when bam, somebody slams into the back of my car. I go right into the divider at seventy miles an hour, the next thing I know, the paramedics are strapping me to a gurney, stuffing me into the back of an ambulance and one of them actually smiles at me as he pops the IV in my arm. And then, nothing. Just, black. And the next thing I know I wake up in a dark room tied up, gag in my mouth, and when the door opens, I’m looking up at the same man I threw out a window, John Locke. My dead son. Given a tranquilizer and wakes up on the island, just like Juliet. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/190 "2007-05-04T21:50:04Z")
[QUOTE=St. Urho] Yeah, with what The Man From Tallahassee said, I thought it was clear he was abducted: Given a tranquilizer and wakes up on the island, just like Juliet. [/QUOTE] Added to that, if he had been ‘wished out of a box’ why is he “The Man From Tallahasse”? If he was conjured by Locke’s subconscious (or something), why would The Others know or care the guy had anything to do with Tallahassee? He was abducted. By physical people. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![SuperNelson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@SuperNelson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperNelson)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/191 "2007-05-04T22:05:56Z")
And I am really looking forwards to next week. We watch on iTunes, so we don’t get the previews, but the title alone brings up all kinds of possibilities. All of them have been mentioned before, but An episode centering around Ben titled _The Man Behind the Curtain_ allows so many ways for the Wizard of Oz to play into the plot. I’m assuming this is quoting the Wizard’s famous line, “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.” When we first met Ben, he said his name was Henry Gale - Henry Gale was Dorothy’s uncle in Kansas (Aunt Em’s husband). The real Henry Gale crashed on the island when his balloon blew off course - which is how the Wizard ended up in Oz. I often hear Australia referred to as Oz, and Oceanic flight 851 originated in Sydney. I hope they have fun with it - for all I know, we’ll learn that Hurley’s part Lion, or that part of 851 crashed on Ben’s sister. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/192 "2007-05-04T22:27:07Z")
I’m betting the title means that there IS NO JACOB - it’s all Ben. Benry is the man behind the curtain, controlling the great and powerful Oz…er, Jacob. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/193 "2007-05-04T23:04:47Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] It is clear that Ben’s control over the Others is slipping; Juliet’s plot to kill him in surgery, the Alex/boyfriend mutiny, the recruiter quietly handing Sawyer’s file over to Locke–all of these point to a political struggle within the Others camp. [/QUOTE] I don’t get the feeling that there’s an uprising within the Others, in particular. I think that they are all or mostly all there because Ben has successfully conned them into staying and doing as he says. They probably all hate Ben and don’t want to help him, **but** they’re each afraid of all the other Others who might do what Ben asks at any given time. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/194 "2007-05-04T23:25:51Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] I’m betting the title means that there IS NO JACOB - it’s all Ben. Benry is the man behind the curtain, controlling the great and powerful Oz…er, Jacob. [/QUOTE] or Jacob is some sort of inanimate object (maybe that’s what Ben keeps in that bag) the podcast definitely implies that the MTBC might be Ben and that Jacob probably isn’t what we’ve been led to expect. But the official synopsis says: Ben begrudgingly begins to introduce Locke to the secrets of the island, beginning with the mysterious Jacob. Meanwhile, Juliet’s secret goes public. ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_Mann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/195 "2007-05-04T23:48:46Z")
I’m almost embarrassed to know this, but the actual line from _The Wizard of Oz_ is “Pay no attention to _ **that** _ man behind the curtain!” ---
**Author:** ![rainy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@rainy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rainy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/196 "2007-05-05T00:31:55Z")
Change time slots…NOOOOOOOO!!! ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/197 "2007-05-05T00:50:55Z")
Forgive me if these are really dumb questions, but I read the whole thread and still am not sure. Why did Ben and Alpert want Cooper dead so badly? If they knew Locke couldn’t do it, why did they want Sawyer to do it (which they clearly did, indicated by the file Alpert gave Locke)? If they just wanted to undermine Locke in the eyes of the Others, having him simply fail to perform would have been enough, and the Sawyer bit would have been unnecessary. I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/198 "2007-05-05T00:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] Forgive me if these are really dumb questions, but I read the whole thread and still am not sure. Why did Ben and Alpert want Cooper dead so badly? If they knew Locke couldn’t do it, why did they want Sawyer to do it (which they clearly did, indicated by the file Alpert gave Locke)? If they just wanted to undermine Locke in the eyes of the Others, having him simply fail to perform would have been enough, and the Sawyer bit would have been unnecessary. I’m confused. [/QUOTE] Ben says something about Locke needing to let go of his past. Maybe once Cooper is dead, Locke will stop obsessing about him, and can fulfill his glorious destiny or something. Just guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/199 "2007-05-05T01:02:16Z")
[QUOTE=pinkfreud] Ben says something about Locke needing to let go of his past. Maybe once Cooper is dead, Locke will stop obsessing about him, and can fulfill his glorious destiny or something. Just guessing. [/QUOTE] And the way to do that is by publicly humiliating and further demoralizing him WRT his father? It seemed so belittling. I wanted Locke to say, “Fuck you, Ben. I’m not going to let my evil, murdering father turn me into an evil murderer, nor am I going to let you. You want him dead? Kill him yourself, asshole.” Then turn and walk away. If anything would have undermined Ben’s authority and made everyone watching with doubts about Ben cheer, it would have been something like that. As it is, Locke looks like an easily manipulated wimp. That’s unlikely to change when he comes in with Cooper’s body next week; that’ll just indicate that he was a successfully manipulated wimp. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/200 "2007-05-05T01:13:55Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] And the way to do that is by publicly humiliating and further demoralizing him WRT his father? It seemed so belittling. I wanted Locke to say, “Fuck you, Ben. I’m not going to let my evil, murdering father turn me into an evil murderer, nor am I going to let you. You want him dead? Kill him yourself, asshole.” Then turn and walk away. [/quote] My feelings exactly. If its really true that the other Others could only respect Locke if he were willing to murder the person who is the source of his troubles, then it seems to me there’s no moral ambiguity about them at all. (This is despite the fact that the writers have said that we are not supposed to be able to easily categorize them morally speaking.) -FrL- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452.md?page=11)