# Lost 3.19: "The Brig" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452 "2007-05-02T13:41:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Alma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alma)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/141 "2007-05-04T04:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s funny that so many people like Hollaway’s acting. I’ve always thought he was one of the worst actors on the show. Of course, it would help if the writers didn’t have him saying “son of a..” every time he opens his mouth. I just don’t see a lot of range there-- he’s always “angry guy”. [/QUOTE] I had thought pretty much the same thing, but I’m beginning to think that it’s the way the character is written that I dislike, instead of the actor. I think Holloway does a fine job when he’s able to give Sawyer a little emotion other than “I’m angry” or “I’m a smarmy bastard.” ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/142 "2007-05-04T11:41:25Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] The _Black Rock_ never made sense to me. Why was a mining outfit using a sailing ship, instead of a steamship, in the late 1860’s (or later; dynamite was patented in 1867)? And where was slavery still legal at that time? [/QUOTE] I may be misremembering but I thought the dynamite on the ship came from Rousseau’s expedition and they had just stored it there for some reason. It would have been unstable enough after 16 years in the jungle; I doubt there would have been anything left of it after 140. ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/143 "2007-05-04T11:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=AuntiePam] My memory might be wrong, but most of the killings we’ve seen til now were done quickly, spur of the moment, in self-defense or by accident/mistake. We haven’t seen an Other or a Lostie or a Tailie deliberately kill someone who couldn’t fight back, have we? [/QUOTE] Ethan deliberately planned and killed Scott (though he was probably just a random target). Charlie deliberately killed Ethan after he had been subdued and captured. Goodwin deliberately killed Nathan (who he could just as easily have let escape). Michael deliberately shot Ana-Lucia but that may have been at least partially a spur-of-the-moment decision. Locke deliberately shoved Mikhail into the sonic fence though we now know that Mikhail didn’t actually die. Nikki deliberately threw the spider on Paulo, though it isn’t clear if she actually planned to kill him or not. Mikhail killed Ms. Klugh, though she was actually asking him to do so. So, yeah. There have been deliberate killings on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/144 "2007-05-04T12:06:17Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] The _Black Rock_ never made sense to me. Why was a mining outfit using a sailing ship, instead of a steamship, in the late 1860’s (or later; dynamite was patented in 1867)? And where was slavery still legal at that time? [/QUOTE] There’s more than one kind of slavery in the world - not just USA Black Slavery. As for the sailship, those were still in use quite a bit, weren’t they? So, that’s what this bunch had. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/145 "2007-05-04T12:52:49Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] The _Black Rock_ never made sense to me. Why was a mining outfit using a sailing ship, instead of a steamship, in the late 1860’s (or later; dynamite was patented in 1867)? And where was slavery still legal at that time? [/QUOTE] Don’t know about the slavery, but sailing vessels were in use for cargo into the 20th century. People assume that once something gets invented, it’s instantly adopted everywhere, but steamships didn’t become standard for many decades after they were invented. For one, steam engines remained unreliable for a very long time; for another, only a few ports in the world had coaling stations, so steamships faced the same problem as hydrogen-cell-powered cars today: where would they tank up? But after 1867 most sailing vessels were windjammers, which were long, narrow ships; the _Black Rock_ clearly isn’t a windjammer. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/146 "2007-05-04T13:10:11Z")
[QUOTE=AuntiePam] After thinking more about it, this particular killing bothers me because Ben and Locke and Sawyer spent time thinking about it. [/QUOTE] I would love to read “Lost - The Novel” to hear Locke’s thoughts while planning his Sawyer-kill-dad setup in more detail than an hour-long show can provide. Locke _says_ the folder didn’t indicate why Sawyer killed that guy in Australia. But he’s pretty sure Sawyer will kill his kidnapee once he “hears what he has to say” so it seems clear the folder _does_ so indicate. In a murder case, why is premeditation an aggravating factor? Because it reveals a level of “evil” that’s harder to understand than a crime of passion - the handlebar moustache twirling villain setting up the saw that will cut the damsel, then setting out to capture her. I don’t think Locke’s premeditation indicates this level of evil; his deliberation first focussed on “Should I do this?” rather than, “How should I do this?” Assuming the killing _is_ justified, the planning of logistics is no more evil than a state executioner’s coordinating this week’s schedule. Now Ben’s premeditation, though, I completely agree is cold-blooded. It seems so out of character, Ben’s cold insistence that Locke kill Cooper, especially in front of the crowd - a crowd with children. Unless… Unless Ben knows that Cooper is really only a manifestation provided by the smoke monster. I’m still trying to decide where I stand on whether Sawyer is justified. > [@](#): > > Cooper was defenseless. I don’t agree that this is an aggravating factor. We can’t expect Sawyer to say to Cooper, “I’m going to kill you now. Let me loose your chains. Stand up and let me kill you like a man.” If it’s given that Cooper’s execution is justified and Sawyer is properly the executioner, Cooper should be as defenseless as a prisoner on death row. > [@tanstaafl](#): > > Nikki deliberately threw the spider on Paulo, though it isn’t clear if she actually planned to kill him or not. My impression was it was clear she was not trying to kill him. Didn’t she assure him he’d be fine in, what was it, eight hours? ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/147 "2007-05-04T13:22:51Z")
[QUOTE=pinkfreud] I think Cooper is played by Kevin Tighe, who used to be on the old series “Emergency.” [/QUOTE] Indeed. Was the murder of Cooper more brutal than the way he was killed in [Roadhouse?](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098206/) ---
**Author:** ![rainy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@rainy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rainy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/148 "2007-05-04T13:34:51Z")
[QUOTE=Alma] I have to admit, I have never been a huge Sawyer fan (nigh-unforgivable amongst my friends), but Josh Holloway’s remarkable performance made me appreciate not just the actor, but the _character_ so much more. When Locke said that there was nothing in the file about why his father killed his mother and then himself–there was so much anguish and fear and hatred and anger all contained in one fixed stare. Now I don’t know who’s the better actor, Josh Holloway or Naveen Andrews. [/QUOTE] I’ve been a Sawyer fan from the begining. But couple this fantastic performance with that awesome scene last season(?) where Sawyer tells Jack about meeting Jack’s Dad in the bar, and I’d be willing to risk saying Holloway is one of, if not the best actor on the show. Of course, I’ve got ‘connection’ to Holloway, he went to high school about 20 miles from where I live and grew up. And I just read in our local paper that Tracy Middendorf, who I went to highschool with, will be in episode 21!!! I’m thinking I should get a free trip to the set, or writers meeting or something 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/149 "2007-05-04T13:40:18Z")
[QUOTE=LateComer] Indeed. Was the murder of Cooper more brutal than the way he was killed in [Roadhouse?](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098206/) [/QUOTE] He didn’t die in Roadhouse. He was the bar owner and was still there in the end when they killed Ben Gazzara. Don’t tell anyone how many times I watched that stupid movie. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/150 "2007-05-04T13:41:15Z")
[QUOTE=Nature’s Call] Now Ben’s premeditation, though, I completely agree is cold-blooded. It seems so out of character, Ben’s cold insistence that Locke kill Cooper, especially in front of the crowd - a crowd with children. Unless… Unless Ben knows that Cooper is really only a manifestation provided by the smoke monster. [/QUOTE] Right. I suspect that’s really what’s going on. Locke had to confront his past. Locke couldn’t do it, at least directly. So Alpert gives Locke the folder of a guy who will see the same manifestation and kill it. The easy surface answer doesn’t explain why they wanted Locke to kill Cooper in the first place, or at least doesn’t explain why the Others explained it the way they did. Why couldn’t Locke kill Cooper, though? He seems ruthless enough. Can’t kill his own daddy, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/151 "2007-05-04T13:43:09Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] Don’t tell anyone how many times I watched that stupid movie. [/QUOTE] Best line: “I used to fuck guys like you in prison.” Great way to make sure you don’t win the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/152 "2007-05-04T13:53:27Z")
[QUOTE=Nature’s Call] My impression was it was clear she was not trying to kill him. Didn’t she assure him he’d be fine in, what was it, eight hours? [/QUOTE] Yeah, laying alone and helpless in the jungle. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![wasson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/4da419/32.png) [@wasson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wasson)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/153 "2007-05-04T13:55:33Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] Right. I suspect that’s really what’s going on. Locke had to confront his past. Locke couldn’t do it, at least directly. So Alpert gives Locke the folder of a guy who will see the same manifestation and kill it. The easy surface answer doesn’t explain why they wanted Locke to kill Cooper in the first place, or at least doesn’t explain why the Others explained it the way they did. Why couldn’t Locke kill Cooper, though? He seems ruthless enough. Can’t kill his own daddy, I guess. [/QUOTE] Cooper wasn’t the smoke monster. Remember when Ben asked Tom to get ‘the man from Tallahassee’? That was obviously Cooper, as Cooper even said he was on the interstate in Tallahassee when he was abducted. Locke couldn’t kill Cooper because Cooper still has control over him. That was said multiple times throughout the episode. Locke has daddy issues just like everyone else on the island. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/154 "2007-05-04T14:31:59Z")
[QUOTE=wasson] Cooper wasn’t the smoke monster. Remember when Ben asked Tom to get ‘the man from Tallahassee’? That was obviously Cooper, as Cooper even said he was on the interstate in Tallahassee when he was abducted. [/QUOTE] Ben also implied that Cooper came out of a magic box, and then later revised his claim, saying he was speaking metaphorically. And remember, Dave didn’t announce to Hurley that he was a vision. He tried to convince him he was real. I don’t think Cooper actually “is” the smoke monster, but there is something on the island that displays convincing images from the past to those who are receptive (Jack’s father, Dave, Kate’s horse, Yemi). In some cases, other people can see them; in other cases, not. It’s not necessarily the smoke monster, or even directly related to it. Maybe Locke’s visions are somehow more reified or permanent than those not as attuned to the island? This makes sense of Ben’s claim that Locke “brought” Cooper there. Or maybe the Others actually kidnapped Cooper. If so, Ben was lying about not knowing the reason why Cooper was there. Either is possible. I just find the first explanation fits better with more of the known details, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![wasson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/4da419/32.png) [@wasson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wasson)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/155 "2007-05-04T14:38:58Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] And remember, Dave didn’t announce to Hurley that he was a vision. He tried to convince him he was real. [/quote] But Hurley saw Dave before being on the island. I never got the impression he was the smoke monster… just Hurley being crazy. > [@](#): > > I don’t think Cooper actually “is” the smoke monster, but there is something on the island that displays convincing images from the past to those who are receptive (Jack’s father, Dave, Kate’s horse, Yemi). In some cases, other people can see them; in other cases, not. It’s not necessarily the smoke monster, or even directly related to it. I also didn’t get that Kate’s horse was the monster. This is mostly because Kate touched it (or am I misremembering?) and that Sawyer also saw it. I was under the impression that Jack’s father and Yemi were the only manifestations, and in both cases only 1 person saw them, and other than a bit of conversation, never “interacted” with them. Yemi basically only said “I’m not really your brother”, and Jack’s dad never said anything. Also, Cooper was seen by dozens of people, tied up, bound and gagged, strangled, shoved in a bag. You think the monster would put up with that? Why? And most importantly, if the Others had so much control over the smoke monster, why would they have the sonic fence to protect them from it? > [@](#): > > If so, Ben was lying about not knowing the reason why Cooper was there. When did Ben say he didn’t know why Cooper was there? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/156 "2007-05-04T14:40:47Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] Ben also implied that Cooper came out of a magic box, and then later revised his claim, saying he was speaking metaphorically. [/QUOTE] I’m going with the obvious. They grabbed Cooper as soon as they realized that Locke was super special. They could have known that within days of the crash (as soon as Ethan had submitted his list - three days, IIRC) a guy named John Locke is supposed to have been permanently paralyzed. And how he’s walking around. That gives The Others a good 70+ days to locate and abduct Cooper and bring him there. As far as the “Magic Box”, I even flatly said in that week’s thread that it was an obvious metaphor. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/157 "2007-05-04T14:57:23Z")
Gfactor: > [@](#): > > Why couldn’t Locke kill Cooper, though? He seems ruthless enough. Not to me, he doesn’t. He’s never killed anyone. In episode 3 of this season, we saw Locke couldn’t bring himself to kill the cop that was going to bust his marijuana-farm buddies. (Maybe those first 6 episodes this season weren’t so pointless after all.) Boone is dead because of his actions, but ultimately it was an accident, Locke didn’t mean for the plane to fall, and he didn’t know his lie to Jack was going to have medical consequences. Eko is also dead due to his actions, but that’s even less direct. He was responsible for Mikhail’s “death,” but again he clearly didn’t know the precise effect the fence would have (especially considering that Mikhail’s not dead after all)! He’s bad-ass, but not ruthless. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/158 "2007-05-04T15:00:38Z")
[QUOTE=wasson] And most importantly, if the Others had so much control over the smoke monster, why would they have the sonic fence to protect them from it? [/QUOTE] I agree with this. Unless the smoke monster manifests itself as angry TCM sometimes and more innocuous visions other times. Like I said (or meant to, anyway), the fact that he’s not the smoke monster doesn’t mean he’s the real Cooper–it just means. . . well, it’s complicated. > [@](#): > > When did Ben say he didn’t know why Cooper was there? Don’t have a transcript available. As I recall it, Ben denied bringing Cooper there, and said Locke should know why he was there because he brought him there. I’m having trouble remembering whether there was a point where Ben said he didn’t know \*why \* Cooper was there, but he’s not taking any responsibility or credit for bringing him to the island. [QUOTE=Merijeek] As far as the “Magic Box”, I even flatly said in that week’s thread that it was an obvious metaphor. [/QUOTE] Yeah, the magic box thing was a bit far-fetched, even for this show. But what was it a metaphor for? Is the box broken now that the Others can’t get to the mainland (because it’s really just a team of operatives) or is it something more psychological or supernatural? If it was the latter, then why would Ben bring it up when he was showing Cooper to Locke? “We’ve got a (metaphorical) magic box for doing stuff like this, but we grabbed this one the old fashioned way, just for kicks.” ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/159 "2007-05-04T15:10:09Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Gfactor: He’s bad-ass, but not ruthless. [/QUOTE] Point taken. What about Mikhail? He thought he’d killed him (or pretended to think it, anyway.) Nevertheless, at least off island he was a nice guy, for the most part. On island, it’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452/160 "2007-05-04T15:28:11Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Yeah, laying alone and helpless in the jungle. [/QUOTE] Good point. But she didn’t anticipate being paralyzed herself, so maybe her plan was to move him elsewhere or guard him while there - or simply not well thought out at all, but still absent intent to kill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-3-19-the-brig/402452.md?page=9)