# Lost 5.12 "Dead is Dead" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 8, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412 "2009-04-08T18:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Morgis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Morgis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgis)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/61 "2009-04-09T14:12:08Z")
The Egyptian god in the hieroglyph was definitely Anubis, god of the underworld. Speaking of the underworld, wasn’t the smoke monster referred to as Cerberus on the blast door map? Rather appropriate when you consider that Ben was going underground to receive judgment from the monster, just like the souls of the dead journey to the underworld. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/62 "2009-04-09T14:13:12Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > We know that Widmore had been leaving the island secretly. If he wasn’t using the sub (hard to do quietly, eh?) it had to be through the FDW, didn’t it?-Joe That seems like the very opposite of a quiet way to leave the island too! Plus, by that time, the Orchid was built, and once that’s happened, it looks like the only way to get to the wheel (since the well is gone and Ben doesn’t use it or any alternate access) is to blow through the Orchid’s chamber, which doesn’t happen until Ben does it. So, he wasn’t using the sub, because at least for some portion of time, the Dharma folks had it, not the Others. And I don’t think he was leaving “regularly” at least via the time turny wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Meltdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Meltdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meltdown)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/63 "2009-04-09T14:17:24Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > I don’t know about that: seems more complex. Why would Christian tell Locke to say hello to his son, for instance? Why does the smoke monster seem to be composed of memories? > > I also just don’t buy the Locke smokey thing. Or even Claire. The Locke writers can pull lots of things on the audience, but somehow those would both feel like cheats to me. Locke is very adamant about being HIM and not necessarily knowing what’s going on. He’s also apparently now truly going to be the leader, which is a human position. If smokey could lead to begin with, who ever needed Charles or Ben? > > And we never got to see Claire die. Announcing that she randomly died in some minor way two seasons ago when we see her in season 6 would feel like a real cop-out. I think that perhaps Locked doesn’t fully know that he’s the smoke monster, in the same way Kara Thrace didn’t know she was an angel (or whatever) in BSG. The smoke monster has become Locke, but in doing so has revived all of Locke’s internal organs, including his brain, and his brain hasn’t processed what exactly has happened, and still thinks he’s Locke. Christian, however, has been the smoke monster for so long he’s come to terms with it. Christian telling Locke to say hello to his son was the smoke monster’s way of helping to get Jack back to the island. Also, just to be clear I do NOT think that Claire is the smoke monster – I think she’s still alive. We clearly saw Christian and Claire together after Claire wandered off. Yeah, it doesn’t explain everything, and there are holes. But something’s definitely different about Locke now. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/64 "2009-04-09T14:29:52Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > So, he wasn’t using the sub, because at least for some portion of time, the Dharma folks had it, not the Others. And I don’t think he was leaving “regularly” at least via the time turny wheel. Well, I thought the FDW was non-quiet because Ben knocked it off its axis somehow? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/65 "2009-04-09T15:05:04Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I just realized that Widmore couldn’t have been taking the sub. Obviously Penny is older than Alex, and Alex was taken before the purge. That means that when Widmore was leaving, they didn’t have control of the sub yet. When the wheel’s pushed, they end up in a different time-Penny could be older because when Ben tricked Widmore into pushing the wheel, they all ended up 10 years forward. Which would also help explain why Ben and Widmore look like they’re within about 10-20 years of each other’s age, when they were born like 30 years apart (Widmore ~1937 to be ~17 in 1955/Ben ~1965 to be ~12 in 1977) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/66 "2009-04-09T15:10:16Z")
> [@Meltdown](#): > > Yeah, it doesn’t explain everything, and there are holes. But something’s definitely different about Locke now. Except that Locke is now behaving like he did back in season one. Remember with his leet backgammon skills and magic knife throwing and _knowing_ stuff. He was like this super-competent guy… totally in tune with the Island and completely zen until he found The Hatch and became the pathetic loser he was in seasons 2-4. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/67 "2009-04-09T15:13:00Z")
When Ben said The Others didn’t have a name for The Smoke Monster I could not help myself to say out loud “How can you not have a name for it?” 😃 “Cerberus” would appear to be the Dhama Initiative’s name for the monster. So we’re still waiting on how/why Hugo ended up on the plane…are they any other LA loose ends I’m forgetting now that we know how Ben got beat up? ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/68 "2009-04-09T15:38:43Z")
> [@Meltdown](#): > > Quote contains a spoiler for BSG which I am removing and reporting to the moderators DAMMIT! I have avoided every BSG related thread so I won’t get spoiled because I have to wait to watch the final season and you spoil it for me in a Lost thread! I wish this were the pit so I could use the proper words to express my feelings right now! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/69 "2009-04-09T15:43:40Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > DAMMIT! I have avoided every BSG related thread so I won’t get spoiled because I have to wait to watch the final season and you spoil it for me in a Lost thread! I wish this were the pit so I could use the proper words to express my feelings right now! Damn, that sucks. I’d be pissed too. Really not much of a spoiler regarding the above, but I’ll put it in a box if you choose to skip it. Basically, no explanation is given. I wish I’d know ahead of time, actually, so I wouldn’t have been looking forward to getting an actual ANSWER on it. Only disappointing thing in the finale show for me, really -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/70 "2009-04-09T15:46:20Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > DAMMIT! I have avoided every BSG related thread so I won’t get spoiled because I have to wait to watch the final season and you spoil it for me in a Lost thread! I wish this were the pit so I could use the proper words to express my feelings right now! A reminder, folks: this thread is open season for _Lost_ spoilers, as detailed in the OP, but not for other shows. There’s no way to know if somebody’s up to date on other series and that they’re ok with having them spoiled, so please either spoiler-box those comments or omit them. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/71 "2009-04-09T15:51:55Z")
Thanks for the quick response moderators, now could you turn the Frozen Donkey Wheel go back in time and stop me from reading that spoiler? Oh well, I guess you can’t do everything. Okay, I meant to post about my theory about why Locke is important to the Island and why Locke is not the Smoke Monster. I think that the true leader must not have been Otherized. Ben was not supposed to have been Otherized but once he had he could never be the true leader but was allowed to fill in as such for a while. I think maybe something similar may have happened with Widmore making him unfit for the same position. ---
**Author:** ![Meltdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Meltdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meltdown)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/72 "2009-04-09T16:25:53Z")
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(☹ I’m terribly, terribly sorry. I wasn’ t thinking. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/73 "2009-04-09T17:14:25Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > **Monstre** , last episode Ilana told Sayid she was hired on behalf of someone that he had killed - I’m guessing the victim was one of Widmore’s peeps. Shot in the dark? Could they be from some remaining faction of the Dharma Initiative? I have a feeling we are going to see what remains of that group before the show ends. Why not now? Plus, if they were Widmore’s group, they’d have detailed maps to the Orchid (which is in the shadow of the statue…) like Kearney did. > [@mshar253](#): > > That was a good episode; better than the last couple, I thought. It was pretty obvious that Ben wasn’t going to die, though, since I’m sure they want to keep Emerson around for next season, too. I was totally worried Ben was a goner. I couldn’t believe they would kill the absolute star of the show (this is Ben’s show!), but you never know with Lost! > [@oliversarmy](#): > > Here’s my guess: > > Locke, Ben’s daughter, Christian, Claire, essentially all the dead people, are entities. They’re no longer sentient. They may be the smoke monster’s way of communicating, but they no longer exist as humans Put me in the camp that thinks all of the dead people are echoes of the real people. Not necessarily just visually. I think the island and temple is some kind of soul collector. That’s why I think Miles’ episode next week should be interesting. > [@Meltdown](#): > > Count me in the camp that believes the smoke monster, Alex, dead Locke, and Christian are all the same entity. > > Evidence: Ben goes down into the cellar to summon the monster. He comes back, expecting it to emerge from the jungle. Who emerges from the jungle? Locke. They go to the temple, Ben falls through the floor. Locke: stay there, I’ll go get something to help you. Locke disappears. Smoke monster appears, shows flashes of Alex. Smoke monster disappears. Alex appears, threatens Ben. Alex disappears. Locke appears, bearing a vine to help Ben get out. > > It could all be coincidence of course, but I’m reminded of the whole Superman/Clark Kent thing – I wonder why we never see those two together? I think if Locke is a manifestation, he doesn’t KNOW he isn’t really Locke. > [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > And we never got to see Claire die. Announcing that she randomly died in some minor way two seasons ago when we see her in season 6 would feel like a real cop-out. I think Claire has been Otherized but is not dead. Unless the two are the same thing… ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/74 "2009-04-09T17:21:22Z")
Still just doesn’t seem right that Locke is the SM. Why would the SM need to threaten Ben not to kill the SM? It just seems sort of silly and unnecessary. Why would the SM tell Sun and Frank to wait around for another version of the SM to come collect them? Why would a SM need to schlep around on foot at all instead of just appearing to people as needed like Christian does? Every suspected SM apparition so far has shown a) complete knowledge and even the full character of the person who is dead (with the odd exception of “Dave” who may or may not be a SM apparition, given that no Dave ever existed in the first place) but also b) a weird, connected and comfortable, straight forward understanding that they are, in fact, dead. Locke seems genuinely Locke, but without having the latter’s knowledge or conviction. His conviction is, instead that he really is alive. That he really has come back from the dead, and in a way that, if we believe his conversation with Sun, shocks Ben. Ben has seen the Island’s dead people (his mom, for one), but he’s never seen someone actually truly resurrected and doesn’t know what to make of it. The fact that Locke has a good feeling about where to head is really no different from Season 1 Locke. He’s _always_ had a strange knowing communion with the Island, a feeling of things he’s supposed to do and places he’s supposed to go. Of course, Christian and now Alex are the only for sure SM apparitions that actually seem to have direct proximal SM signs: Charlie at the mental hospital (who they make clear with the behavior of the other patients, was more than just a delusion) was just Charlie, with no whispers or any sign of smokey: same with Anna Lucia appearing to Hurley (if she was a SM thing and not just a delusion, which is not as clear). Christian has almost always appeared in conjunction with whispers, even off island (the freighter with Michael, appearing to O6 Jack, etc.) What other likely SM apparitions have we seen with or without Smokey being nearby timewise or spacewise? > [@Merijeek](#): > > Well, I thought the FDW was non-quiet because Ben knocked it off its axis somehow? > > -Joe You’d think that the Others would at least take note of the fact that the Island moved in time and space every time he did this, though, no? That still seems a remarkably conspicuous way to travel. And there’s still the “Orchid station is there now” objection. Given that we know that you can leave the island by boat if you follow a particular bearing, it’s not like the sub and the wheel are the only ways off the island anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/75 "2009-04-09T17:37:01Z")
> [@picker](#): > > I agree the heiroglyph featured an animal headed god. I think it was [Anubis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anubis_standing.svg) but it could also have been [Set](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Set.svg). > > Anybody have a screenshot? They have **very** different roles in Egyptian mythology and might shed some light somewhere. Or not, as is often the case with Lost. > > . It’s Anubis, not Set. I have seen the screenshot. Of course, there are thousands of obscure Egyptian Gods, but they are almost never refered too. Of the two choices here, I have no doubt it’s Anubis. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/76 "2009-04-09T18:19:47Z")
Do y’all think Walt was an apparition of the Smoke Monster when he appeared to Locke in the mass Dharma grave after Ben shot him? ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/77 "2009-04-09T18:21:17Z")
[Link to the screen shot of the carving on Lostpedia](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Image:MonsterImage.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/78 "2009-04-09T18:26:27Z")
> [@Alias](#): > > Didn’t Locke get pulled partway down the monster’s hole (sorry, couldn’t phrase it better) way back in season one or two? Yes but it was a random smokey vent in the woods, not the main hole by the temple. At first I thought he was going to take them there too, but he went to the temple instead. > [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > Of course, Christian and now Alex are the only for sure SM apparitions that actually seem to have direct proximal SM signs And Yemi. Has Christian actually had smoke signs? ---
**Author:** ![Alma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alma)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/79 "2009-04-09T18:36:30Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > And we never got to see Claire die. Announcing that she randomly died in some minor way two seasons ago when we see her in season 6 would feel like a real cop-out. Maybe I’m the only one, but I thought she really did die when her house exploded in New Othertown last season. It seemed too easy that she survived with a couple of scratches (though I guess we know that happens on the island). While they’re trekking back to the beach she says something about still being alive and Miles says “are you sure of that?” We know Miles can talk to dead people, and the way he was eyeing her, I thought he knew something Sawyer didn’t. I figured she was reanimated but not alive at that point, and especially after Locke saw her with Christian. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/80 "2009-04-09T18:41:08Z")
Christian has often had whispers (like on the freighter with Michael’s last moments) and recently we’ve even seen him and Smokey in the same shot (Smokey is outside while he’s talking to Sun and Frank). Yemi has been seen without explicit monster signs, but also very much with them, so we can probably assume that they are always related. In fact, Yemi is an odd case, because Eko very clearly seems to intuit that Yemi is NOT really Yemi, but in some sense a fake. So is Christian a fake too? Alex? Are these people who are part of SM, or simply the SM using them as puppets with none of the real person being there. It’s really not clear. And Walt is an _excellent_ point, given that he has appeared WITH whispers (like when he showed up to the blonde chick in season 2) and to Locke, but is NOT DEAD. That sort of blows the idea that the SM is SIMPLY a repository of dead souls/god of the underworld right out of the water. It’s more than that. Live, dead, maybe even imaginary (Dave) it seems capable of just about anything. It leans things more towards the idea that SM is imitating the people it displays rather than using some “real” repository of them and their spirits, post death. And yet while I would be tempted to then say that it’s reflecting these apparitions out of the consciousness of the people it appears to, what do we make of Christian? A lot of these appearances really seem inconsistent. Charlie says he’s Charlie, and is really “there,” but also that he’s dead. Christian appears to people who have NEVER met Christian, and yet seems to care about things (“Say Hi to Jack for me”) that SM wouldn’t necessarily have a reason to care about. Walt appears to people even when the real Walt isn’t there or even dead. Yemi acts like Yemi, and yet seems, at least to Eko, to be in some way a phony, a trick. Alex has Alex’s personality, but she seems to speak with the anger of the Island, when the real Alex never displayed much concern about the Island. Who the heck knows what’s going on at this point! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412.md?page=5)