# Lost 5.12 "Dead is Dead" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 8, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412 "2009-04-08T18:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/141 "2009-04-11T14:03:11Z")
> [@wasson](#): > > Ben himself told Widmore that, when he stopped by his penthouse. Remember the exchange where he said he was going to kill Penny because his goons killed Alex? Uh, yes? That’s exactly what I was referring to. When Ben tells Widmore that Widmore killed his daughter, Widmore acts like a) he already knows this and b) he knows how it went down, and even that it’s actually all Ben’s fault and not his. Not sure I buy the Hurley/Sun/Widmore connection. First of all, the only time we see them (Sun/Widmore) speak prior to season 5 they don’t say anything about it, and we see the whole conversation. Plus, it seems like this conversation took place later than Ben’s machinations/warning, because Sun had already given birth/taken over her father’s company. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/142 "2009-04-11T21:20:31Z")
> [@Birdmonster](#): > > That feels right to me. IIRC he was arm-dragging himself through that field with the Nigerian plane. Which means what, though? That the island was reminding him “John—I know you think Boone shouldn’t have died. Need I remind you you should not be walking? Trust me.” Locke’s legs stopped working before Boone died. In fact, had they been working, Boone might very well not have died. The main reason Boone climbed the cliff up into the plane was because Locke couldn’t go himself as his legs were busted at the time. WAG, maybe the island shorted out his legs to keep him from dying instead of Boone. ---
**Author:** ![wasson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/4da419/32.png) [@wasson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wasson)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/143 "2009-04-11T21:55:24Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > Uh, yes? That’s exactly what I was referring to. When Ben tells Widmore that Widmore killed his daughter, Widmore acts like a) he already knows this and b) he knows how it went down, and even that it’s actually all Ben’s fault and not his. I’m not sure why this is a big leap for you. Widmore sent a bunch of goons to the island to kidnap Ben by any means necessary and kill everyone else. Should Widmore have been totally surprised when he finds out that his gang of mercenaries succeeded in killing some of the island natives, namely a 16-year-old girl? ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/144 "2009-04-11T23:21:22Z")
> [@wasson](#): > > I’m not sure why this is a big leap for you. Widmore sent a bunch of goons to the island to kidnap Ben by any means necessary and kill everyone else. Should Widmore have been totally surprised when he finds out that his gang of mercenaries succeeded in killing some of the island natives, namely a 16-year-old girl? No, but Widmore seemed pretty certain that he was not responsible at all, which would be a pretty weird attitude to take if what you just said above was the whole truth. Plus, he knows for certain that they failed in their mission: some Lostees survived, and the Island itself vanished. Myself, I’m a little doubtful of that scenario in any case. Widmore thought of the Others as his people and the Island as his. I think I need more evidence before taking Ben at his word that even people like Richard were marked for death, and that Widmore would think that wiping out every single remaining Other would allow him to ever return to the Island’s good graces. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/145 "2009-04-12T01:31:19Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > No, but Widmore seemed pretty certain that he was not responsible at all, which would be a pretty weird attitude to take if what you just said above was the whole truth. I think this episode makes everything clear - Widmore has the position that Ben wrongly tricked him off the island, and therefore anything Widmore does to get back to the island or get back at Ben is ultimately Ben’s fault. In other words “I sent people that ended up killing your daughter, but you made me do it”. There’s also heavy implications in this episode that Alex was a big factor in the worsening split between Widmore and Ben that led to Ben getting him banished. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/146 "2009-04-12T01:44:59Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I think this episode makes everything clear - Widmore has the position that Ben wrongly tricked him off the island, and therefore anything Widmore does to get back to the island or get back at Ben is ultimately Ben’s fault. In other words “I sent people that ended up killing your daughter, but you made me do it”. Perhaps, but I’m still not convinced that’s it. Widmore says “…and lay the blame for the death of that poor girl on me. When we both know that I didn’t murder her at all, Benjamin. You did.” Ben replies “No, that’s not true.” I’m not sure what to take from that: it’s pretty ambiguous. But it doesn’t seem to lay out that meaning as clearly as it might have (he didn’t just have to murder her: he didn’t murder her), if Widmore really thinks anything he does is justified. At the very least, Ben’s denial doesn’t seem to acknowledge that that’s Widmore’s reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/147 "2009-04-13T22:34:14Z")
> [@oliversarmy](#): > > Here’s my guess: > > Locke, Ben’s daughter, Christian, Claire, essentially all the dead people, are entities. They’re no longer sentient. They may be the smoke monster’s way of communicating, but they no longer exist as humans We never saw anything about Claire dying – just her getting up and heading off into the jungle following Christian (and then in Jacob’s cabin). I think Claire is still alive – I don’t think there’s any reason to believe otherwise right now. As for Alex – I’m pretty sure she was just a manifestation of the smoke monster, telling Ben how it is. Like Yemi… and perhaps some others we’ve seen. Somehow, though, I think Locke IS really Locke – and that’s why Ben is truly scared shitless. He hasn’t seen this before (like he told Sun). ---
**Author:** ![Spurious\_George](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Spurious\_George](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spurious_George)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/148 "2009-04-13T22:49:03Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > We never saw anything about Claire dying – just her getting up and heading off into the jungle following Christian (and then in Jacob’s cabin). I think Claire is still alive – I don’t think there’s any reason to believe otherwise right now. We saw Claire **get hit by a rocket-propelled grenade and lie motionless under heavy rubble**. i.e., she died. A very small number of people later saw Claire mysteriously appear (did they dig her out of the rubble or did she just…show up later?) She stayed with them in Otherton for one night, and then disappeared in the middle of the jungle in daylight, leaving behind her beloved son. She has since appeared in dreams and in the company of Jacob. She’s as dead, or entity-thingy, as people get on this show. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/149 "2009-04-13T23:06:37Z")
> [@Spurious\_George](#): > > We saw Claire **get hit by a rocket-propelled grenade and lie motionless under heavy rubble**. i.e., she died. > > A very small number of people later saw Claire mysteriously appear (did they dig her out of the rubble or did she just…show up later?) . Sawyer pulled her out the rubble just moments after her house got hit by the grenade. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/150 "2009-04-14T03:00:27Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Sawyer pulled her out the rubble just moments after her house got hit by the grenade. Where was Aaron at that point? Don’t remember. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/151 "2009-04-14T03:08:25Z")
I believe Aaron was with Hurley. ---
**Author:** ![EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilHamsterOnCrack)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/152 "2009-04-14T03:52:47Z")
So I read the whole thread just looking for this theory, and didn’t find it, so I’m throwing it out there. This just can’t be right since noone has mentioned it, so let me know where my holes are. So the pilot comes back and everyone’s suddenly all serious and they have a case that we don’t know what’s inside. What if what’s inside is John Locke’s dead body? I don’t remember, do we ever actually see him step out of the coffin? He could be a smoke monster vision or whatever the hell he is, but the reason the ajira survivors are serious now is they know something’s up and are super suspicious. Also somehow they stumbled upon a statue. Or something. Fuck I’m confused. This season is just awesome. I’m glad I stuck around through all the setup, but it really feels like they’re going somewhere now, setting up the final season. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/153 "2009-04-14T04:17:28Z")
> [@Spurious\_George](#): > > We saw Claire **get hit by a rocket-propelled grenade and lie motionless under heavy rubble**. i.e., she died. > > A very small number of people later saw Claire mysteriously appear (did they dig her out of the rubble or did she just…show up later?) Sawyer immediately went and pulled her from the house. She was groggy at first, but plenty coherent for much of the remainder of the episode. She was there when Ben set the smoke monster on the mercs, and she headed out of the Barracks with Sawyer, Locke, Ben, etc. When Ben and Locke decided to go see Jacob, Sawyer chose to head for the beach, and Claire decided to go with him (and Miles). There was the bit about Miles “I-Hear-Dead-People” looking at Claire in an odd way (and Sawyer getting on his case about it). But unless it was blown-up-Claire-got-reanimated-by-Smokey-or-Jacob-pretty-damn-fast-in-her-original-body (because Sawyer ran to her house right after the explosion), she acted pretty alive for the remainder of that episode. ---
**Author:** ![mshar253](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@mshar253](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mshar253)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/154 "2009-04-14T04:27:51Z")
Has there been any word as to whether or not Emilie de Ravin is signed on to come back? Watching Frasier reruns on Lifetime, I saw that she did a made-for-TV movie on that channel, but, since the movie already aired, I imagine she’s done with that. Anyway, I would think that her obligations to Lost – if she still has a contractual obligation – would quickly clear up whether or not she’s alive. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/155 "2009-04-14T04:31:03Z")
> [@mshar253](#): > > Has there been any word as to whether or not Emilie de Ravin is signed on to come back? Watching Frasier reruns on Lifetime, I saw that she did a made-for-TV movie on that channel, but, since the movie already aired, I imagine she’s done with that. > > Anyway, I would think that her obligations to Lost – if she still has a contractual obligation – would quickly clear up whether or not she’s alive. She won’t be back for this season (she’s in a couple upcoming season), but she is supposed to return in some capacity for Season 6 ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412/156 "2009-04-14T17:04:09Z")
> [@mshar253](#): > > Has there been any word as to whether or not Emilie de Ravin is signed on to come back? Watching Frasier reruns on Lifetime, I saw that she did a made-for-TV movie on that channel, but, since the movie already aired, I imagine she’s done with that. > > Anyway, I would think that her obligations to Lost – if she still has a contractual obligation – would quickly clear up whether or not she’s alive. To expand on **enalzi’s** spoiler, De Ravin is on a special contract this season which essentially says, “Show up when we need you.” Several former cast members have this type of contract. However, the producers have said she is on full credited cast next season. One caution against reading too much into alleged contract statuses. It was rumored that Dr. Artzt was a full cast member for the next season, and that blew up in all of our faces. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-12-dead-is-dead/492412.md?page=7)