# Lost 5.15 "Follow The Leader" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 6, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571 "2009-05-06T18:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/61 "2009-05-07T16:59:50Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > A week or two ago, just before he was shot, Daniel said something like “No! Don’t you understand? I always thought 'Whatever happened, happened” but that’s only if you don’t factor in the power of the human heart \<3 🙂 🙂 :)! Human will and love can change aaaaaany-thing." > > It was a cringe-worthy, eye-rolling moment, only barely made better by the fact that it’s entirely possible he’s still brain-damaged. Except, as quoted by you later, that is not actually what he says. It’s like right after the Gettysburg Address when Lincoln insisted on pouring out some of his drink for his “fallen homies”. Totally wrecked the whole speech. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/62 "2009-05-07T17:02:45Z")
> [@HelloNinja](#): > > I have to say… makes a lot of sense. I like it. I like it a lot. The one thing that I find problematic about theoris like that is the Horace’s ghost-gives-cabin-map-to Locke scene. If Jacob doesn’t exist, what does that imply about Horace’s appearance and the map? And why is there a magically moving cabin on the island? None of that proves Jacob exists, of course, but it leaves another weird mystery in his place if he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/63 "2009-05-07T17:12:06Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Except, as quoted by you later, that is not actually what he says. > > -Joe So you missed the part where I said > [@](#): > > Daniel said **something like…** ? As in “I was paraphrasing”? “I always thought 'Whatever happened, happened” but that’s only if you don’t factor in the power of the human heart" is a good, if snarky paraphrase of “We make choices. We have free will. We can change our destiny.” ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/64 "2009-05-07T17:45:36Z")
Spiler from DarkUFO: But in season 3, when Ben takes Locke to see “Jacob”, there is no one to see, we realize that Ben really is “The Man Behind the Curtain”. Did I miss something? How did they come to this conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/65 "2009-05-07T17:58:06Z")
We’ve seen flashes of an unidentified man in “Jacob’s cabin”. Hurley saw him and Locke saw him on separate occasions. So I believe DarkUFO is mistaken. Jacob appears to be as “real” as anything on The Island can be, and it seems rather unlikely to me that the figure is someone other than Jacob. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/66 "2009-05-07T18:29:21Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > So you missed the part where I said ? > > As in “I was paraphrasing”? > > “I always thought 'Whatever happened, happened” but that’s only if you don’t factor in the power of the human heart" is a good, if snarky paraphrase of “We make choices. We have free will. We can change our destiny.” I’m glad you think it’s good. Good for you! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/67 "2009-05-07T18:41:39Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > Chang: “Who’s the President of the United States?” > Hurley: “Alright dude, we’re from the future…” > > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! The whole thing was funny: “When were you born?” “Uhhhh…19…30” “Your 47 years old?” “Yes” “So you fought in the Korean War?” "There’s…uh…no…such…thing.. Faraday’s Mom is kinda hot, both in 1954 and 1977. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/68 "2009-05-07T18:43:02Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > The one thing that I find problematic about theoris like that is the Horace’s ghost-gives-cabin-map-to Locke scene. If Jacob doesn’t exist, what does that imply about Horace’s appearance and the map? And why is there a magically moving cabin on the island? None of that proves Jacob exists, of course, but it leaves another weird mystery in his place if he doesn’t. Also, what about the circle of ash surrounding the cabin? It supposedly keeps Jacob in, or something out of the cabin. If there were no Jacob, why would they need the ash? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/69 "2009-05-07T18:46:01Z")
> [@Shark\_Sandwich](#): > > Also, what about the circle of ash surrounding the cabin? It supposedly keeps Jacob in, or something out of the cabin. If there were no Jacob, why would they need the ash? I suppose I’d be willing to accept that it’s superstition or taboo–maybe to keep the unitiated Others out or something. Just part of the whole charade. But the cabin’s existence as a moving target is tougher to accept if it serves no purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/70 "2009-05-07T18:46:39Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > The one thing that I find problematic about theoris like that is the Horace’s ghost-gives-cabin-map-to Locke scene. If Jacob doesn’t exist, what does that imply about Horace’s appearance and the map? And why is there a magically moving cabin on the island? None of that proves Jacob exists, of course, but it leaves another weird mystery in his place if he doesn’t. I also don’t think that theory allows for a third, more likely contingency: namely that, in 1954, Jacob may not exist. It’s possible that Locke is telling Richard the future without really knowing he’s doing so. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/71 "2009-05-07T19:01:53Z")
> [@HelloNinja](#): > > I found this well thought out theory as to the possiblity of Jacob not really existing on the [DarkUFO site](http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com). > > I have to say… makes a lot of sense. I like it. I like it a lot. That’s a great theory, although I don’t think it will turn out to be true. I thought the way that Richard was portrayed in this episode was really interesting. He basically had no idea what was going on the entire time. Previously, he seemed like this all-knowing character, but now he seems like a regular dude who just doesn’t age. He seemed quite confused about time-travel Locke, but he’s had enough experience with meeting the Losties in different times that he should have things somewhat figured out by now. ---
**Author:** ![mshar253](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@mshar253](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mshar253)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/72 "2009-05-07T19:13:16Z")
I don’t think Faraday’s speech had anything to do with “true love” (I’m not spelling it like that). I think he was saying that, since they know they’re in the past, they can do things that they know **must** impact the future, to change the course of history. In this case, it’s setting off the hydrogen bomb: since they know that the island’s magnetism attracted Oceanic 815 in the first place, they’ll just set off the bomb and blow the island sky high so there’s no way that any course-correction can be done. That’s how I’m interpreting his speech, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/73 "2009-05-07T19:18:26Z")
> [@mshar253](#): > > I don’t think Faraday’s speech had anything to do with “true love” (I’m not spelling it like that). I think he was saying that, since they know they’re in the past, they can do things that they know **must** impact the future, to change the course of history. In this case, it’s setting off the hydrogen bomb: since they know that the island’s magnetism attracted Oceanic 815 in the first place, they’ll just set off the bomb and blow the island sky high so there’s no way that any course-correction can be done. > > That’s how I’m interpreting his speech, anyway. The producers said in the podcast that they actually cut a part of the scene where Farraday explained the course correction thing in terms of ripples in water. To paraphrase (transcript unailable) they seemed to be saying that a tiny change would be ineffective because the universe course corrects, but a giant change (like blowing up the island) might be. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/74 "2009-05-07T19:45:36Z")
Is it just me or does 1977 Richard Alpert seem to be going along with this whole “blow up the island” plan a little to easily? Faraday shows up in 1954 talking to them about Jughead 1954 Faraday tells Eloise he’s from the future and disappears Faraday shows up in 1977 brandishing a weapon, looking for Eloise Eloise shoots Farady Faraday discloses relationship Faraday has a book bearing Eloise’s handwriting Jack confirms time travel story to Eloise OK, at this point perhaps they have enough evidence to think the Losties are time travelers from the future Then, Jack says we have to blow up Jughead to restore the time line Eloise asks Kate for confirmation Kate questions Jack’s reasoning and wants to back out Off they go to detonate a nuke on the island, and Alpert seems to be going along with all of it without much pause given the potential dire consequences, the conflicting opinions of Jack and Kate on the issue, and the fact that Faraday isn’t there to resolve the conflict or explain further. Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/75 "2009-05-07T20:07:10Z")
It’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/76 "2009-05-07T20:11:50Z")
Not to mention we haven’t even heard _how_ detonating a hydrogen bomb is supposed to fix things. It’s been my experience that large munitions usually do more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/77 "2009-05-07T20:14:24Z")
> [@Birdmonster](#): > > Not to mention we haven’t even heard _how_ detonating a hydrogen bomb is supposed to fix things. It’s been my experience that large munitions usually do more harm than good. They’re going to destroy the energy with more energy. Duh! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/78 "2009-05-07T20:21:01Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > They’re going to destroy the energy with more energy. > > Duh! > > -Joe You’re right. There’s no way this can backfire at all. And if the hydrogen bomb doesn’t work, I think there’s an atomic bomb under the Black Rock. That should even everything out. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/79 "2009-05-07T20:22:13Z")
The lack of concern about the weirdness of their situation is so far off the rails I barely even notice anymore. “Say, Others - now that we’re friends and all…do you mind telling me who you are, where you came from, what you’re doing here, and what the hell is going on?” “Swim under here and into these tunnels with Egyptian hieroglyphics all over them.” “Roger that!” ---
**Author:** ![Dilton\_Doiley\_Philosopher\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f1d935/32.png) [@Dilton\_Doiley\_Philosopher\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dilton_Doiley_Philosopher_King)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571/80 "2009-05-07T20:23:42Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > So perhaps Jacob is stuck flashing through time. The only thing we’ve heard Jacob say is “Help me” to Locke…perhaps the side effect for him is that he’s virtually immortal and isn’t happy about it… Perhaps setting off the nuke in 1977 causes Jacob to be freed in 2007? Locke is proven wrong (again) when Jacob is freed and actually shows up in front of his people at his cabin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-15-follow-the-leader/495571.md?page=5)